My frustration with the word "custom".

[Deleted member 115360]

View attachment 244186as you can see, this is a more pure quasi-custom.

Isn't that from the first robocop?

I'm pretty sure it was.

 

[milo-2]

"Terms" are always evolving. I am sure long before any aftermarket(custom) actions were produced, a trued up Rem 700 or a doctored Win Model 70 was full on custom. Replace the stock with a task specific model, aftermarket barrel and tune the trigger.
Today, a rifle built with all pricey aftermarket or "custom" may not be construed as a custom because the market is flooded them.
Bill Wilson created an empire revamping Colt Series 70 1911's. Then along come Les Baer and Ed Brown and they manufactured their own frames and slides. The first time I ever heard the designation semi custom was in reference to Les Baer, he had a good number of specific models and started having in stock inventory.
I like others have been amused a time or two over designated terms. I joined snipers hide about the same time I joined here. Always guys talking about their builds, usually consisted of a replacement stock and a Badger 20 moa base and rings. And they were saving up for a Jew-ell trigger and a Leupold Mark 4. Then you would get the pic of it, sitting on the kitchen table in front of the window looking out at the trailer house next door.
Post # 2 here really summed things up, what are we comfortable with. If I decide to list what I call a custom, I usually separate the barreled action from the stock and sell separately, the paint schemes are usually too wild for most sane people.

 

[Gcan]

I'd like to know if the rest of you roll your eyes at all of the "custom" guns on the auction sites, as well as the classified ads on forums like this one.

If you bought a bunch of readily available AR parts and threw them together in your basement, I might buy them, but if you call it "custom" and attempt to market it as a custom rifle, not only will I refuse to even think about buying it, but I will make assumptions about your character, your lineage, and I will assume that you beat puppies to death with bags of kittens.

I've seen instances where guys have rattle canned a stock in some poor attempt to create a camouflage pattern, and they call it "custom". Buy a $300 Bell and Carlson stock, change out two action screws, and now they think it is "custom", and it drives me nuts.. Is it just me?

I feel the same way. Many of us put hours and hours into building bolt and gas guns. We put out names on them. We shoot them. We provide targets, accuracy guarantees and product warranties. These are custom guns.

Picts. AR308. 14" Shilen match barrel Krieger Barrel Extension. Custom (i made it) gas block. It shoots Federal Premium 168s @ 1/2" @ 100yrds. And is in break in.

I use a 36x Weaver bench scope to test all guns.

308 bolt pistol on XLR chassis. The barrel was match chambered and throated for 168s, contoured and fluted here. I have them at home today so I can shoot both to complete break in. If they don't shoot 1/2" they don't go. All the genuine smiths I know have similar standards. We have a couple ex-mils (self proclaimed spec operators) here in Tampa/St Pete area who spend all their time on their branding and social media. They claim to build CUSTOM rifles. Their shop equipment consists of a drill press and grinder. Fools pay them $4000 for a bolt together "custom" rifle. They buy prefit barrels and use rem actions that have not been trued or for more $$ you get a Defiance action. They don't even own a truing kit from PTG, Manson

or anyone. They are frauds with a 7 license. While buyers need to be aware of the Goober who built his gun on the kitchen table, the real scam is so-called smiths doing the same thing. Like most true Machinist/Smiths, i Can't tell you how many "Custom" guns built by FFLs we've had to make right.

 

[misterc01]

The problem with that definition, and that is the common definition, is that everything is set to within factory tolerances. So it is not any better than something right off the showroom floor because all of those parts are also within factory tols or it would not have made it far enough to be sold (excepting the parts that slipped by). This is true of both vehicles and rifles. So "Blueprinted" sounds good, but it really doesn't tell me anything new. OTOH if a rifle is being sold with an action that has been "trued and tuned", now that tells me something useful.

In my whole 30-odd year career in manufacturing and Engineering I can recall seeing Basic dims on three different drawings. Not that the whole part was Basic, just one or more of the dims on the drawing. Which is to say that a part with a dimension that has no tolerance (aka "Basic") is a pretty rare thing indeed. Mfr's do not like them, they drive the cost of the part literally astronomically high.

I do cars more than rifles, Restomod is a very familiar term. One that I think should be applied far more often than it is. When I see something like a '57 Nomad with an LS3 in it and the seller is calling it "Restored" I immediately figure they're either lazy, ill-informed, a shyster, or a used car salesman; and possibly all four. When they label the same car as a Restomod then I think that they're being much more truthful and are likely much more engaged in the car hobby.

"Custom" could be defined as I changed one action screw from blued to stainless. That makes the rifle truly one of a kind as there aren't likely to be any others out there with only one SST action screw. So calling a rifle "Custom" means nothing, but it sure sounds good!

I see your point., but IMHO when a gunsmith hand selects parts, measures. modifies where necessary (trues?) and ensures all the parts of the firearm match the specifications or desires of the purchaser, then he has made a custom-ordered custom firearm - one unique to that owner. If others like it, then any follow on firearms are being custom made for their owners. Example - If I add/change out parts, and polish selected portions of the bolt, sear, etc. of Ruger 10/22, is that modifed, improved or now customized specifically for me? Food for thought. Kind of reminds of what a Justice on the Supreme Court once said about pornography - "I may not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it."

 

[memtb]

To incite the debate farther, is it truly a "custom rifle".....if you didn't build the scope also? memtb

 

[Deleted member 115360]

I feel the same way. Many of us put hours and hours into building bolt and gas guns. We put out names on them. We shoot them. We provide targets, accuracy guarantees and product warranties. These are custom guns.

Picts. AR308. 14" Shilen match barrel Krieger Barrel Extension. Custom (i made it) gas block. It shoots Federal Premium 168s @ 1/2" @ 100yrds. And is in break in.

I use a 36x Weaver bench scope to test all guns.

308 bolt pistol on XLR chassis. The barrel was match chambered and throated for 168s, contoured and fluted here. I have them at home today so I can shoot both to complete break in. If they don't shoot 1/2" they don't go. All the genuine smiths I know have similar standards. We have a couple ex-mils (self proclaimed spec operators) here in Tampa/St Pete area who spend all their time on their branding and social media. They claim to build CUSTOM rifles. Their shop equipment consists of a drill press and grinder. Fools pay them $4000 for a bolt together "custom" rifle. They buy prefit barrels and use rem actions that have not been trued or for more $$ you get a Defiance action. They don't even own a truing kit from PTG, MansonView attachment 244189View attachment 244188View attachment 244190View attachment 244188 or anyone. They are frauds with a 7 license. While buyers need to be aware of the Goober who built his gun on the kitchen table, the real scam is so-called smiths doing the same thing. Like most true Machinist/Smiths, i Can't tell you how many "Custom" guns built by FFLs we've had to make right.

Thank you sir, so much good info. You brought a thought to my mind about custom rifles. There must have been a wave of demand for custom rifles early in the 20th century because I still see beautiful old custom riflea pop up periodically with hand carved stocks and various barrel lengths, engraving and polish work on the old Enfields and 1907's. I'm sure we've all seen a pile of them, and you can tell that the work is old. Back when all of that work had to be done by hand because there wasn't a way to do it in a machine yet, and they seem to be pretty common. Back when there were no options for swapping parts (for the most part), and the smiths just had to modify what was already there. These days you can replace every single part of a rifle on a single website with dozens of options for each part, and there must be a thousand websites in existence where one could do that. We are very fortunate to live in a time with so many easy options for "customization".

 

[Deleted member 115360]

I forgot to mention the customs built on the old Mauser actions. More of them than the other two I mentioned. I'm sure we've all seen them converted to big African calibers, and some of those rifles are national treasures because of the gunsmithing work, especially when one considers how much of the work was done with hand tools..

 

[misterc01]

To incite the debate farther, is it truly a "custom rifle".....if you didn't build the scope also? memtb

Wouldn't that actually be a custom-made scope to fit a custom rifle?

 

[K-guns56]

I'd like to know if the rest of you roll your eyes at all of the "custom" guns on the auction sites, as well as the classified ads on forums like this one.

If you bought a bunch of readily available AR parts and threw them together in your basement, I might buy them, but if you call it "custom" and attempt to market it as a custom rifle, not only will I refuse to even think about buying it, but I will make assumptions about your character, your lineage, and I will assume that you beat puppies to death with bags of kittens.

I've seen instances where guys have rattle canned a stock in some poor attempt to create a camouflage pattern, and they call it "custom". Buy a $300 Bell and Carlson stock, change out two action screws, and now they think it is "custom", and it drives me nuts.. Is it just me?

Yeah I get it. The other words that are sometimes exaggerated, EXTREME and TACTICAL makes me roll my eyes.

 

[mercerbear]

To incite the debate farther, is it truly a "custom rifle".....if you didn't build the scope also? memtb

I think I'd rather have a peep site than a home built scope

 

[Deleted member 115360]

I think I'd rather have a peep site than a home built scope

Me too. That just sounds like a trend that doesn't ever need to start. Imagine if a company like vortex started selling all of their components, so you could custom make whatever scope you want. Within a year or two most companies would start doing the same thing out of neccessity, 10 minutes later Wheeler makes a home scope building kit, and now thousands of jokers are on gunbroker trying to sell their frankenscopes. If there is a God, I am certain he will not allow that mess to happen.

 

[mercerbear]

Me too. That just sounds like a trend that doesn't ever need to start. Imagine if a company like vortex started selling all of their components, so you could custom make whatever scope you want. Within a year or two most companies would start doing the same thing out of neccessity, 10 minutes later Wheeler makes a home scope building kit, and now thousands of jokers are on gunbroker trying to sell their frankenscopes. If there is a God, I am certain he will not allow that mess to happen.

This would be an amazing April Fool's Day press release.

 

[Deleted member 115360]

This would be an amazing April Fool's Day press release.

You're right, it would. Can you imagine the ripples it would send through the optics world..

"Furthermore, vortex plans to go online with their components for spotters and binoculars in the 3rd quarter of 2021, and said they will be delivering gasses by mail so the optics can be built completely at home."

 

[mercerbear]

You're right, it would. Can you imagine the ripples it would send through the optics world..

"Furthermore, vortex plans to go online with their components for spotters and binoculars in the 3rd quarter of 2021, and said they will be delivering gasses by mail so the optics can be built completely at home."

"The fact of the matter is that assembling high quality scopes isn't that difficult. In fact, anyone can do it at home."