Measuring CBTO - What is wrong with my approach?

Mark37082

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2021
Messages
3,260
Location
Tennessee
So I may be missing something or maybe I am too cheap and lazy to buy another tool, but I am sacrificing one piece of brass for each of my rifles in order to measure CBTO. I use a Dremel to cut two slots in the neck of the brass and can easily adjust the tension on the bullets. Simply place the bullet in the brass with a shallow seat and carefully load into the action. I close the bolt and even more carefully remove the cartridge. Measure the CBTO with a Hornady Lock N Load bullets comparator several times after repeating the preceding steps to come up with a consistent measurement to the lands. I then seat that particular bullet .002 shorter than the distance measured to the lands.
When I am reaching the point of load development where I want to tweak the bullet seating depth, I just increase the jump .005 at a time and shoot a 3 shot group to determine optimum seating depth.
Thoughts/Suggestions?
 
I went the modified case route but your way works just as good, probably better. I had to drill and tap cases because some of my cartridges are obsolete or unavailable.

Micrometer seating dies make all the difference when fine tuning cartridge length. I have a few Redding, Forester, and Hornady micrometer seaters and recently picked up the FA universal seating die and i find that it is dead-nuts accurate to the thousandth. it has a bullet alignment sleeve so TIR control is excellent as well
.
 
You took the first step, That is just the begining, Like Mike said...and QT...

There are a couple of competing camps. I suggest you do some searching and reading.
Here is something worth reading
Berger has some guidlines as well...
 
You're describing finding land touching point.
Nothing to do with CBTO
Mikecr - I thought cartridge to base ogive was the measurement between the base and the ogive. Is that not what you are doing when you are trying to find the where the ogive is touching the lands? If I am missing something logical, it is hitting a crack in my brain. If you are using a consistent tool for measuring where the ogive of the bullet touches the lands and use the tool to measure your seating depth, it would seem this would be the purpose of the process.
 
You took the first step, That is just the begining, Like Mike said...and QT...

There are a couple of competing camps. I suggest you do some searching and reading.
Here is something worth reading
Berger has some guidlines as well...
Thanks asd9055. I've read the Berger manual front to back and read through the article as well. It was informative and I need to dig a little deeper. I guess I was looking for feedback on my rudimentary approach to measuring what I need to know before determining seating depth.
 
Mikecr - I thought cartridge to base ogive was the measurement between the base and the ogive. Is that not what you are doing when you are trying to find the where the ogive is touching the lands? If I am missing something logical, it is hitting a crack in my brain. If you are using a consistent tool for measuring where the ogive of the bullet touches the lands and use the tool to measure your seating depth, it would seem this would be the purpose of the process.
To get the most accurate measurement in your rifle, you need to remove the extractor and ejector off your bolt, or your measurement will be "off" by whatever the base to shoulder difference is between your chamber and the cartridge you are using. The ejector will push it in all the way otherwise.
When I first started down this rabbit hole, I left the extractor and ejector installed. Someone learned me on the extractor/ejector. I then used a dowel to push the bullet out (pushing the bullet into the case). Now I have a modified "hook" to extract the case once the bolt is pulled back. A paint can opener can work for this if you're careful.

Or, just use cerrosafe and make a chamber cast. It melts at about 175°F and holds exact shape for about 20 minutes (or longer) after you pull it out. You can search for instructions on that process.
 
There are many ways to do it! There is a video explaining the first way P7M13 is talking about. There is the modified case method using hornady tools, there is the cleaning rod method using Frankfort arsenal tool. I am sure there are a few others. Which ever you chose, repeat until you get consistent results! You will get many opinions!
Your method works to! Just repeat until you get consistent measurement
 
Last edited:
I thought cartridge to base ogive was the measurement between the base and the ogive.
It is. The "lands touching point" is the distance from the bolt face to where the bullet interfaces with the lands, commonly presented in inches and described as BTO or CBTO. There are a few minor variances that aren't accounted for in your method, but generally speaking you're correct. Use a headspace comparator on the case you use to check depth, then on a sized one you're loading, and account for that difference and you're basically all the way there.

All the hooplah about touching and this and that and the other doesn't matter. Every measurement in this process is relative to some other dimension - even if you cast the chamber you're still at the mercy of the accuracy of your tools to measure the actual caliber diameter ogive and the actual datum line on the shoulder and so on and so on, where do you pick where to stop and be reasonable? A few thousandths here or there won't add up to anything that makes a difference if you're shooting for a wide seating depth node for practical use.

You can find the lands a bunch of ways, right up to loading bullets progressively longer until one sticks when you open the bolt and calling that your longest seating depth. Other than setting a "maximum" length to work backwards from it does not matter - after the initial seating depth you're loading bullets to particular BTOs and it doesn't matter if they're exactly 0.020" or 0.024" or 0.028" from the absolute perfect lands touching point as long as they shoot well and you load them consistently to that length.

If you're loading to score points in matches and can control every minor variable in the process you can do seating depth tests in 0.001" increments and chase the lands and get all bent out of shape about the absolutely best and most perfectly repeatable measurement. In the practical world try to find the widest node of depths you can to get the most consistent performance so if one variable gets messed up you aren't screwed.

The thing I actually take the most issue with in your method is shooting 3-shot groups. Any string less than 10 shots (but preferably 20 or more) doesn't provide inferential results. It provides negative confirmation that the group won't get any smaller than what the shots did, but can very certainly get larger. So if the first two shots are further apart than you want, stop wasting the third shot and pull the bullet when you get home. Or...

Either an arbor press or a Lee hand press will let you adjust seating depths are the range - seat two to each depth initially and leave the rest at the longest BTO - if you find a string of two-shot groups that looks promising seat some of the longer bullets down to that level and shoot more.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your input. I've learned something here. The article was outstanding BTW. Never thought about removing the ejector. I really should just buy the tool with a modified case as it sounds like this is much more precise. I am also going to start experimenting with longer jumps.
 
It might be easier to do with your seating die and a case. First, remove spring and ejector from the bolt. Then, I just seat until my bolt handle closes. Then keep going deeper until it opens without hanging up on the lands. The last stick point is my touch.

Makes modified case, oal gage and other methods defunct. it is incredibly precise and repeatable.
 
Mikecr - I thought cartridge to base ogive was the measurement between the base and the ogive. Is that not what you are doing when you are trying to find the where the ogive is touching the lands? If I am missing something logical, it is hitting a crack in my brain. If you are using a consistent tool for measuring where the ogive of the bullet touches the lands and use the tool to measure your seating depth, it would seem this would be the purpose of the process.
You're right Mark. I should have slowed down to see your logical perspective.
It's my brain that cracked
 
Last edited:
I've been living in blissful ignorance when it comes to this! Or at least I haven't got wrapped around the axle. Maybe I will now. 😄
Another cup of coffee and I'll fully digest what's been posted. Somebody offer me the red pill!

Two ways I measure:

1. Place a once fired sized case with slightly longer seated bullet into the chamber. Bolt removed. Put pressure on the round with a finger. Point barrel to sky. If round doesn't freely fall out, the bullet is stuck into the rifling. Punch out with cleaning rod from muzzle end. Continue to seat bullet deeper by .002 and repeat until the round falls freely out the chamber. Measure the CBTO with a comparator and record that measurement. Then pick where you want to start off the lands.

2. Place a once fired sized case with slightly longer seated bullet, colored black with a sharpie, into the chamber. Close the bolt on the round. Rotate the bolt lifting up and down on the handle keeping the round in the chamber. After 4-6 up/downs on the handle, eject the round and check for rub marks on the bullet. Should present as shiny spots on the bullet. Recolor the bullet and repeat until you see no shiny spots. Record that CBTO.

Not all wizzbang enginery technical, but this is working for me.
 
Top