Making A Case For The 308 Winchester By Michael Eichelle

[Michael Eichele]

Michael,

The Sierra Bullet's were 175 match kings, I loaded them with H4895 and 10k off the lan's. Charge wt. of 40gr, 41gr,42gr, and 43gr. three rounds per group and each group is touching. What a great combo, thanks for the info.

How will the 175 mk do as a hunting bullet? I also shot some factory Nosler 165gr Accubond and had 2 touching and one just off. This rifle is fun to shoot.

I just recieved the load data from Berger so I will work up the loads for the 168's this weekend.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction

Steve

Personally, I dont like the SMK's for hunting. They seem inconsistent to me in the terminal department. I prefer the AMAX variety except for the 155. From the 168 through 208, the terminal effects at long range for up to deer size critters has been flawless. I wouldnt use them on anything bigger than deer with the exception of the 208. I would feel safe using that for elk SO LONG AS I took ony lung shots and NO bone. The good choice for elk and larger is the 200 SGK. Good weight, good BC, good construction for 308 velocities and a great minimal velcoity for expansion. Bergers are great and all but require a higher velocity for expansion. (1800 FPS versus 1500 FPS)

M

 

[soren]

Thank you for the info.
Soren

 

[TxBroke]

I have become the owner of a Remington 673 in 308, new, only fired at factory, this is the second one I have owned in the last 6 months, the first one was a disaster. It has a 22" barrel, what can I do make it a decent 500 yard gun?

 

[Michael Eichele]

Why was the first one a disaster?

What is your definition of a decent 500 yard gun? Paper, varmints, deer, what???

 

[Nabob77]

Great article Michael Eichelle, and a lot of useful information regarding the application of the 308, ballistics, velocity, potential loads, and use of various grain bullets. I've been lucky enough to shoot moose out to 400 + yards with a 30-06 220 grain bullet and over 600 yards with a 300 WM 180 grain bullet. Terminal on both of my first shots on the animals. Admittedly, Both times were simply guesses at best. Naturally, like most hunters here, quite a few have been taken at more do-able yardages inside 300 yards. And the Canadian moose is a large enough target so those are my best achievements. The only thing that offers any kind of explaniation for these great shots is based on tthe fact that I have shot a lot of smaller caliber rifles and somehow, through trial and error, have learned to "arch" the bullet to the target.

What I have noticed in your article is that there is a far more precise science to your successful shooting application(s) at Longer distances then i imagined there were. I'd say, overall, it all makes sense to me. I've been reluctant to get into hand-loads and have dialed in all of my hunting rifles with factory loads that have proven to shoot as good as they can within a 300 yard average. I now see that re-loading can make things much more accurate out to yardages beyond 300 yards.

I have been looking around at mostly factory rifles that seem to have some long range capacity, and as a left hand shooter the options are limited. In relation to less expensive options I have two in mind that I would like your comments on.

I see long range shooting as my next step in hunting...

1. If choosen I would have to purchase Savage 10FLCP-K 308 with accu trigger and accu stock, detachable mag., Carbon Steel 24" barrel; 1 in 10" twist; factory muzzle brake and factory weight without scope is about 8.9 lbs. This is probably a starting point for something that is set-up at the factory in 308. But given it's deminsions, I'm not too sure what it's limitations might be. I've always preferred heavier bullets and would appreciate any comments you may have...? And I don't know if Savage would install a longer barrel as a request.

2. I do have a Left hand Savage 16 FLHSS in 300 WSM; 1 in 10" twist and a 24 inch barrel, the factory weight without scope is 7.15 lbs. I could look at a longer barrel. At the present time it shoots Federal 180 SP quite well. any comments would be useful.

As an asside, once I found out that my Sako 30-06 shot the SGKBT 165s with amazing accuracy I have never tried anything else. But I don't know the extent of yardage with this rifle and cartridge.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Thank you.

I have never had any trouble running 200 grain pills in the 308. I prefer the SGK. They are a bit shorter than the Accubonds and open up at lower velocities. This is a good choice for elk, moose and bears. The BC's are very close as well.

For deer and sheep I like the 168, 178 and the 208 AMAX. I prefer the 208. The 208 I am running at just over 2600 FPS and is deadly accurate way out there. With its high BC, it offers minimal wind drift. Windage of the 308 has long been the largest complaint among shooters for years next to bullet drop. With the advent and availability of the laser range finder, the drop has all but been forgotton but not the windage.

The 208 has made a dramatic improvement in the 308s windage department. I had been concidering switching to the 7mm08 a while back due to the 162 AMAX and 168 Bergers. After testing the 208, the windage is neck and neck. Granted, there is a bit more recoil with the 208 versus the 162 however with all trade off's there are certain advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is the recoil. The advantages are barrel life, down range energy, a bigger hole and a lot more material to be shed inside the critter. It is a legitimate 1000 foot pounds at 1000 yards load. Add 5000' of elevation on a deer or sheep hunt and it becomes over 1200 foot pounds of energy. This is a contender for a 1K deer/antelope/sheep load and definately a legitimate 800 yard load with 1500 foot pounds.

With RL17 or VV N-550, you should have no trouble finding 2600-2630 FPS in a 24" stick. You may have to load them 1 at a time. I personally dont like to do that. I use a Wyatt box magazine (extended length) and use N550. It takes a bit less powder to reach 2600 and it is a smaller size which takes up less case capacity. I can seat the bullets for magazine feeding without any trouble.

M

 

[TxBroke]

Why was the first one a disaster?

What is your definition of a decent 500 yard gun? Paper, varmints, deer, what???

The first one had bad riflings, apparently it was a refect that slipped by quality control, it took about 6 months to get another rifle. I refused to let them change just the barrel. Remington finally agreed.

I want the 500 yard for deer and elk, I have never had a 308 until I bought the first one, do not know that much about them. I have bedded it, replaced the factory rings and bases on the scope, removed the raised rib, installed a Timiney trigger, had the bolt checked for true. I put a 4x12-42 Nikon Monarch on it. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[pcat]

Shooting large game with a bullet with less than 1000 ft# of energy is just wrong.I have .308,.300 savages and wouldn't consider anything over 400 yrd as an ethical shot.A '06 with a long barrel is a little better.I can wring almost .300 w.mag volocities out of a heavy bullet but with the short magazines coupled with the low volume in .308 brass,it isn't practical nor reasonable. I read all the claims for 3000fps for 200 gr. bullets and am just flabbergasted that no other member has challenged them on those claims.Short of blowing up the gun,it isn't possible and I guess the first lier had to be outdone by the rest.Looking at my speer reloader book confirms my last statement and woe to the poor sob who tries to match these liers claims.I think the .308,.307,,300 savage and any other caliber in that range is a great 200 to 300 yd game getter.It beats the pants off of 30/30 and yet that lowly round has accounted for 8 out of 10 deer ever killed.Funny how such a low power,slow bullet could be so effective.Its because most shots are under 150 yds.Simply keeping the range to the power applied to kill HUMANELY.Sure,we hear about the long range shots with low power rounds but they rarely do the job cleanly.I shot 500 yd to 700 yd shots with the '06 but never would take that shot with a .308.Those who claim they can take game cleanly at extended ranges with one are delusional.I wouldn't take a 1000yd shot with an 06,either.Thats why magnums were made for and thats why I use them.If you want to shoot a mile dont use a cap gun. I harvested my 5x5 mule deer on ----------- mt in the okanogan,wa. last season with a 150 gr remington psp corlokt. .300 savage hand load at 160yds.Clean one shot through the lungs and down for the count. No tracking,no following a blood trail.Just walk up and start him rolling down the mountain and drag him to the trailhead.Long range shooting for some but I could have got him at twice that range.If I was covering a longer range I would have moved up to the '06 or some magnum.I like to eat what I shoot so I try to use enough power without losing half the meat.You make the judgement but if you can't handle the recoil,its not likely you are going to hit what you are aiming at so if the .308 is what you can handle then get into a spot that requires you to shoot less than 400 yds.

 

[TxBroke]

I have been considering purchasing a .338, I had one years ago, I am not the premier shot by any means, however, the results I have obtained at the range with the 308 are not impressive. My son-in-law likes the 308 and I can give it to him minus the scope. I appreciate your candor and fast reply.

 

[mikebob]

Michael Eichele I love my 308 as well and with the bullets and powder today it is even better. I find myself using it more and more in my hunting. Light recoil, very accurate and very deadly at long range with good shot placement. I have taken game farther with my 300WM out passed 1000yrds, but I find myself more interested in moving a couple hundreds yards closer and using the 308 because it is just a pleasure to shoot.

Thanks for the article it was very good

 

[mikebob]

Shooting large game with a bullet with less than 1000 ft# of energy is just wrong.I have .308,.300 savages and wouldn't consider anything over 400 yrd as an ethical shot.A '06 with a long barrel is a little better.I can wring almost .300 w.mag volocities out of a heavy bullet but with the short magazines coupled with the low volume in .308 brass,it isn't practical nor reasonable. I read all the claims for 3000fps for 200 gr. bullets and am just flabbergasted that no other member has challenged them on those claims.Short of blowing up the gun,it isn't possible and I guess the first lier had to be outdone by the rest.Looking at my speer reloader book confirms my last statement and woe to the poor sob who tries to match these liers claims.I think the .308,.307,,300 savage and any other caliber in that range is a great 200 to 300 yd game getter.It beats the pants off of 30/30 and yet that lowly round has accounted for 8 out of 10 deer ever killed.Funny how such a low power,slow bullet could be so effective.Its because most shots are under 150 yds.Simply keeping the range to the power applied to kill HUMANELY.Sure,we hear about the long range shots with low power rounds but they rarely do the job cleanly.I shot 500 yd to 700 yd shots with the '06 but never would take that shot with a .308.Those who claim they can take game cleanly at extended ranges with one are delusional.I wouldn't take a 1000yd shot with an 06,either.Thats why magnums were made for and thats why I use them.If you want to shoot a mile dont use a cap gun. I harvested my 5x5 mule deer on ----------- mt in the okanogan,wa. last season with a 150 gr remington psp corlokt. .300 savage hand load at 160yds.Clean one shot through the lungs and down for the count. No tracking,no following a blood trail.Just walk up and start him rolling down the mountain and drag him to the trailhead.Long range shooting for some but I could have got him at twice that range.If I was covering a longer range I would have moved up to the '06 or some magnum.I like to eat what I shoot so I try to use enough power without losing half the meat.You make the judgement but if you can't handle the recoil,its not likely you are going to hit what you are aiming at so if the .308 is what you can handle then get into a spot that requires you to shoot less than 400 yds.

Len doesn't like ethics being brought up in his forums.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Shooting large game with a bullet with less than 1000 ft# of energy is just wrong.I have .308,.300 savages and wouldn't consider anything over 400 yrd as an ethical shot.A '06 with a long barrel is a little better.I can wring almost .300 w.mag volocities out of a heavy bullet but with the short magazines coupled with the low volume in .308 brass,it isn't practical nor reasonable. I read all the claims for 3000fps for 200 gr. bullets and am just flabbergasted that no other member has challenged them on those claims.Short of blowing up the gun,it isn't possible and I guess the first lier had to be outdone by the rest.Looking at my speer reloader book confirms my last statement and woe to the poor sob who tries to match these liers claims.I think the .308,.307,,300 savage and any other caliber in that range is a great 200 to 300 yd game getter.It beats the pants off of 30/30 and yet that lowly round has accounted for 8 out of 10 deer ever killed.Funny how such a low power,slow bullet could be so effective.Its because most shots are under 150 yds.Simply keeping the range to the power applied to kill HUMANELY.Sure,we hear about the long range shots with low power rounds but they rarely do the job cleanly.I shot 500 yd to 700 yd shots with the '06 but never would take that shot with a .308.Those who claim they can take game cleanly at extended ranges with one are delusional.I wouldn't take a 1000yd shot with an 06,either.Thats why magnums were made for and thats why I use them.If you want to shoot a mile dont use a cap gun. I harvested my 5x5 mule deer on ----------- mt in the okanogan,wa. last season with a 150 gr remington psp corlokt. .300 savage hand load at 160yds.Clean one shot through the lungs and down for the count. No tracking,no following a blood trail.Just walk up and start him rolling down the mountain and drag him to the trailhead.Long range shooting for some but I could have got him at twice that range.If I was covering a longer range I would have moved up to the '06 or some magnum.I like to eat what I shoot so I try to use enough power without losing half the meat.You make the judgement but if you can't handle the recoil,its not likely you are going to hit what you are aiming at so if the .308 is what you can handle then get into a spot that requires you to shoot less than 400 yds.

Len doesn't like ethics being brought up in his forums.

+1

pcat, dont condem 308 fans for what they use and they will offer you the same courtesy. I use a couple of different weapons to accomplish what I like to do. The 308 is simply my favorate and what I have had the most success with. For the record, I have never lost a big game animal to the 308 past 200 yards. I like to eat what I shoot as well, hence the reason I love my 308's. They are scary accurate. An expanding bullet in the boiler room is all that is needed. I have a few over 700 yards and one nearly 800. It works for me and it can work for anybody else willing to use the right bullets and powder. Dont feel confident with it? Then dont use it. Use what you like and I will use what I like. Some guys like those jacked up trucks with big mud tires and the big block engine. Others enjoy better fuel ecomomy and versatility.

BTW, I have never heard of anybody running 200 grain pills at 3000 FPS in a 308. Thats a new one. I am with ya though. If I ever heard a user state that, I would call him on it.

 

[mikebob]

Mike thanks for the info on the 208 A-Max just picked some up going to give them a try

 

[Nabob77]

Hi again Michael

1. With the 308 in mind, I was wondering to what degree does one adjust the loads with powder, primers and grain of bullet and twist for different lenght of barrels...? I' prefer the heavy end of bullet weight and probably thinking along the lines of 1 in 10" twist, unless you think there are additional considerations.

2. And how does the length of the barrel affect the velocity, and accuracy...?
3. And as a barrel gets longer does that imply the need for a heavier contour barrel?

I suppose I'm thinking that at some point a given barrel lenght might be more considered an "acceptable" practical hunting rifle; where after a certain length of barrel we would be definitately referring more to a Long Range Rifle.

So for practical reasons I will refer to an even number of inches for barrel lengths, as most of what I have seen on various Rifle internet sites usually shows an even number for barrel lengths. So, with this in mind, the following suggested barrel lengths may be the simplest way for you to address this question. For example starting with a 20 inch barrel then a 22", 24", 26" 28" and 30" which seems to be the longest sold by some factory guns out there like Savage and Browning. (Although I'm sure someone has made one longer). Generally, How does the length affect all of the areas of performance that I have mentioned above...?

Your comments are appreciated.