M98 mauser sleeved action project

[EddieHarren]

BartB, as I think we all know, the man who reads the conditions best AND has top notch equipment is usually the man on top of the match report.

I don't recall mentioning any group sizes for any Aggs. or records. As far as small groups go, if you'll notice in benchrest group match reports, they always post the small group winner but that shooter is rarely the Agg. winner.

 

[J E Custom]

Very nice project.

The only experience I have with sleeved actions were with chrome Molly and they were used
to strengthen the action (Solid or open bottom) because of the weight of heavy barrels.

These were shrink fitted (Heated and pressed over a cold action For an interference fit) these
Sleeves were 1/8 to 1/4'' thick depending the weight class of the use.

It is a tricky job but well worth the effort in many ways (Also the fun of doing it) It is sometimes
used when a stainless look or need is present and the action is Chrome Molly.

Good luck and have fun.

J E CUSTOM

 

[EddieHarren]

Every sleeved action, that I have ever owned or seen, was glued in with epoxy.

 

[Bart B]

As far as small groups go, if you'll notice in benchrest group match reports, they always post the small group winner but that shooter is rarely the Agg. winner.

Good to see you post that statement. Been there. Done that. Shooting 5 shots inside 2 inches in moderate wind condtitions at 1000 yards with aperture sights with a .308. The spotter had all holes from them no more than 3/4" away from the spindle. All 15 shots in that string went inside about 17 inches, but those 5 in a tiny cluster about 6 inches off dead center just outside the X ring but deep in the 10 ring did feel pretty good at the time.

I wish the NBRSA and PA 1K Yard Club would post all group's sizes for agg records. Then such evaluations of the rifle-ammo-shooter performance would be easy to see. An agg of 5 inches for 6 groups could include a few of small ones and and several big ones, or a lot of small ones or a couple of small ones and several large ones.

 

[Bart B]

The only experience I have with sleeved actions were with chrome Molly and they were used to strengthen the action (Solid or open bottom) because of the weight of heavy barrels.

I've never had any problem with 26 or 30 caliber 28" long 1.2" at the receiver straight taper to .9" at the muzzle hanging on Win. 70 receivers. Neither has anyone else I know of. If someone really did, then that info's been kept from or never passed by me. Winchester's .300 H&H Mag Bull guns were built that way for decades and they didn't have any issues with it. Nor did Remington with their .30-.338's in their 40X action.

Note the flex and whip barrels make in the vertical axis when fired puts more stress on the receiver's (and barrel's) tenon threads and face that the barrel's weight alone does. And I'm not aware of any problems standard barrel's whipping causes to open bottom receivers makes. And some Win 70 receivers have had well over 100 heavy barrels fit to them and none are any the less for wear. Their natural elasticity limits of the steel were never exceeded.

 

[J E Custom]

I've never had any problem with 26 or 30 caliber 28" long 1.2" at the receiver straight taper to .9" at the muzzle hanging on Win. 70 receivers. Neither has anyone else I know of. If someone really did, then that info's been kept from or never passed by me. Winchester's .300 H&H Mag Bull guns were built that way for decades and they didn't have any issues with it. Nor did Remington with their .30-.338's in their 40X action.

Note the flex and whip barrels make in the vertical axis when fired puts more stress on the receiver's (and barrel's) tenon threads and face that the barrel's weight alone does. And I'm not aware of any problems standard barrel's whipping causes to open bottom receivers makes. And some Win 70 receivers have had well over 100 heavy barrels fit to them and none are any the less for wear. Their natural elasticity limits of the steel were never exceeded.

Funny you should mention a 40x in 30x338 I had one and it was a single shot (Solid floor) and to make competitive
for 1000 yard matches I had to bed the first 1" of the barrel to help support the 27+ inch barrel. I could mash down on the barrel and make it touch the stock with little effort I experimented with up to 3'' of bedding and found on that rifle 1''
on the barrel kept the groups very tight and pressing down on the barrel to make it touch was more diffacult.


The sleeved rifles I was referring to were all Hunter bench rest and If it did not help I assure you the rifles would
not have been sleeved.

Maximum weight of the complete rifle was 8 pounds loaded with a 5 round capacity .

They would typically shoot bug holes at 200 yards. In that game they leave nothing to chance.

And as far as you not knowing about it ----- these guys would not tell anything about there equipment in order to stay competitive.

One of these guys was making his own bullets .001 larger and no one found out until he died
and his wife gave his notes to his best friend.

Shrink fitting assures that the sleeve is mechanically sound and once you shrink fit a sleeve there is no taking it off with out machining it off so you only have one shoot at it and it has to be right. This also takes some precision machining and not many have the skills to do this. The reason some Glue
the sleeve to the action is because you can check the fit as many times as you want and machining
is simple. some of the old time shooters had pride in what they did and glueing a sleeve or any other part to an action just didn't seem right. Does it make it shoot better ? I don't know, but they believed it did and as you know confidence in your equipment can make a difference on how you shoot.

There are a lot of things that I have never heard of but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or has never been done.

I will just post what I know, not what you know. Fair enough ?

J E CUSTOM

 

[Clark]

And as far as you not knowing about it ----- these guys would not tell anything about there equipment in order to stay competitive.

That is why I have been a fan of Bart for years.
He was a long time competitor at the national level, and he explains what he did in engineering terms and gives it away for free on the internet.

What I really benefit from is not what he does, but what he does not bother to do.
If he can shoot a 3.325" 20 shot group with a 308 at 800 yards and I can't seem to get a 12" 5 shot group with a 7mmRM at 600 yards, then what ever is a waste of time for him is surely a waste of time for me.

 

[Bart B]

Funny you should mention a 40x in 30x338 I had one and it was a single shot (Solid floor) and to make competitive for 1000 yard matches I had to bed the first 1" of the barrel to help support the 27+ inch barrel. I could mash down on the barrel and make it touch the stock with little effort I experimented with up to 3'' of bedding and found on that rifle 1'' on the barrel kept the groups very tight and pressing down on the barrel to make it touch was more diffacult.

Such things have happened.

I've shot a few 40X .30-.338's, two I bedded receiver only, no pad under chamber and they shot .3092" diameter (7.85mm) Lapua D46 185's well under 1 MOA at 1000 with the factory barrel which was about as good as any belted mag shoots. Neither shot Sierra's worth a darn. The other was a tub gun; wash tub groups with all sorts of bedding attempts. Finally found the Douglas barrel to have a couple of tight spots as well as non linear rifling twist; the button straightened out a couple of times when it was rifled.

The factory bedding on one did let the barrel touch the stock fore end tip with down pressure on it. I believe the cause was too soft of wood in the stock in the receiver area. After expoxy bedding the receiver, no more problem as I put an extra thick Devcon pillar around the front screw.

I've shot a number of very accurate rifles testing them but they only performed well after hogging out all the bedding under the chamber area in the barrel. They would not hold elevation for 25 to 30 shots in a prone long range match.

 

[skinny pedal]

Not to change the suject but i know metal better than guns and one thing i know is that if you put aluminum directly on metal it causes a corosion that is similar to rust and i have seen it get bad enough to brake 5/8'' bolts so if you are wanting to sleeve your action i would recomend using a simular metal.
by the way nice looking work !

 

[Clark]

I have won some military contracts for electronics that had "no dissimilar metals" requirements. We had to go through salt fog, and we had lots of dissimilar metals, but we sealed them.

I have had dissimilar metals problems in plumbing.

But in rifles, I have made pillars from brass [higher than the steel receiver in the Galvanic series] and pillars from Aluminium [lower than the steel receiver in the Galvanic series], and I have never had a problem.

But the rifles I have been building just see sage brush and rain.

My brother bought a working Rem 11 shotgun for $50 that had been used for decades to hunt ducks on the salt water of Hood's canal. When we took it apart, there was lots of rust.

 

[EddieHarren]

JECustom, when you refer to Hunter benchrest, are you referring to score shooting? I've been shooting IBS Hunter class benchrest for a long time and, sleeves are not allowed on Hunter class rifles. The weight limit is 10 Lbs. The forearm cannot exceed 2.25" in width and, the action must be a repeater capable of feeding 2 rounds, in succession, from the magazine. Scopes are limited to 6X.

 

[Bob the nailer]

Not to change the suject but i know metal better than guns and one thing i know is that if you put aluminum directly on metal it causes a corosion that is similar to rust and i have seen it get bad enough to brake 5/8'' bolts so if you are wanting to sleeve your action i would recomend using a simular metal.
by the way nice looking work !

Thanks for the heads up, I called ALCOA Aluminum then "the aluminum counsel". After a discussion about this I found a solution.

Thanks again.

 

[Bob the nailer]

This is what I came up with for a solution on a push type bolt release. Along with keeping the ejector feature.


Second picture shows the relief cut to allow install/removal of the ejector spring, third picture shows proper position for finished bolt stop, last picture is a quick opening of both pivot holes for pinning to sleeve.


Been fun so far now to mark the sleeve for the bolt stop cut and pivot pin hole.

 

[Bart B]

Yobuck, what size circle is the smallest you think a Win. 70 box magazine action based rifle would shoot 40 shots in a row at 600 yards from a .308 Win. or 30 in a row at 1000 from a 30 caliber belted magnum; all shots fired 20 to 30 seconds apart?

I've no idea why you're not responding to this query, so I'll answer it from what I've seen and done. Then you can think, say, do or whatever about it.

Win. 70 in .308 Win., 40 shots at 600 yards, all inside 2 inches; 1/3 MOA.

Win. 70 in .30-.338 Win. Mag., 30 shots at 1000 yards, all inside 5 inches, 1/2 MOA.

And all with full length sized or brand spanking new unfired cases, too.

That's as good as or better than the best medium or long range benchrest rifle with a long, thick, heavy solid bottom, single-shot action such as the ones touted to be so much better than an open bottom (box magazine) action.