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Loads ready can't decise ocw or ladder test?

I would agree. I believe that Dan now recommends adjusting seating depths a bit to see what happens.

Dr. Vette and Dsculley, forgive me for asking, but I'm still learning this method also. Why did you choose the 41.3 on the 1st target instead of the 41.7 (or 41.9 not sure can't quite make it out) on the second target, top right corner? Seems to me there is very little horizontal deviation and they are all on the same vertical line. The SD is out of the ball park on both loads so I'm curious. Hope you'll help me understand better.

Thanks,

DocB
 
Yes I did shoot in round robin style so the drop in temperature had some to do with the changes in velocity. It's still hard for me to understand why a 9 degree temp change changed them that much. I was trying to find the most stable powder so I'm good through the whole year. Is imr4831 that sensitive to temp? I'll be glad to get a water capacity of the cases, do I just fill them all the way up to the top and way the difference between empty and full? Do I need to do multiple cases this way and take the average?

Many thanks! I Think I'm going to buy quickload soon. I just don't have a good pc.
 
I haven't messed with the seating depth yet. Right now they are about .010 thousands off of the lands I think (I'll repost for sure once I'm back around my shooting log book). A good non temperature sensitive load is what I was going for before I fine tune it with seating depth.
 
Yes, weigh the cases empty, and then full of water. The difference is the case volume.
I was not implying the change in temp caused a drastic change in MV. It is more likely that changing light conditions caused the chronograph to read differently. The actual ES may not be a great as the chronograph showed.
With the OCW method, you are looking for a node where the center of the groups do not change very much. This may not be the smallest group you see on the test. This is the node that is most forgiving to minor changes in pressure due to changes in case volume, changes in ambient temp, the rifle heating up, etc.
If you have not done so already, go to OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System and read the entire site for a better understanding of the OCW concept and process.
PM me when you get the case capacities.

Dennis
 
I do realize that there is going to be a change in velocity no matter what powder I use. I'm just lost on weather to keep going with imr4831 or if now is the time for me to move on to trying another powder.
 
Hey dsculley, thanks for the advice and help! I am using a magneto speed chrono so the light shouldn't have effected the readings. I did read up on the ocw method before I did it and I'm starting to wonder if doing it at 200 yds was a bad idea?! I feel confident in my sub moa shooting abilities and all of these shots at 200 were taken carefully and precise off of a bipod and bags. When I look at the center of the groups between 41.3 and 41.7 they are in the exact same spot and I am happy about that for sure. However the charge right between the 2 (41.5) didn't show the same spot; I guess I'm over analyzing that load because it's only .25" low and .25" to the right of the other 2 so that could have been me some (that's why I'm supposed to do it at 100. Lesson learned.). I will get back to you on the case weights and thank you again!
 
Hey dsculley, thanks for the advice and help! I am using a magneto speed chrono so the light shouldn't have effected the readings. I did read up on the ocw method before I did it and I'm starting to wonder if doing it at 200 yds was a bad idea?! I feel confident in my sub moa shooting abilities and all of these shots at 200 were taken carefully and precise off of a bipod and bags. When I look at the center of the groups between 41.3 and 41.7 they are in the exact same spot and I am happy about that for sure. However the charge right between the 2 (41.5) didn't show the same spot; I guess I'm over analyzing that load because it's only .25" low and .25" to the right of the other 2 so that could have been me some (that's why I'm supposed to do it at 100. Lesson learned.). I will get back to you on the case weights and thank you again!

Not to throw a wrench in your plans but I think MOST people develop loads either purely for cold weather OR hot weather due to temp sensitivity with IMR powders. I have heard of people actually having two different loads for the same rifle because of this. That being said, I doubt 9 degrees in temp change would cause any issues. I think it is more like 30+ degree temps swing (summer time being 80s and Hunting season being 30s-20s where I am). You could look into hodgdon powders which claim to be a lot less temp sensitive. I think most people's experience with these powders such as H4350 back this up.
 
With the OCW method, you are looking for a node where the center of the groups do not change very much. This may not be the smallest group you see on the test. This is the node that is most forgiving to minor changes in pressure due to changes in case volume, changes in ambient temp, the rifle heating up, etc.

Indeed! I have seen so many people argue about how great the OCW test was; and they weren't even doing it right, they were selecting the smallest group.

These are the paragraphs I seem to copy and paste the most.
OCW Test Example

When finished, I had three shots on each of the five targets, BUT (!)... I don't look for the tightest group of the five and call that my load.

Here's what I do instead, and I'll explain why later: I look for the three groups of the five that come the closest to hitting the target in the same position. I noted that in this case, the three groups from the middle of the string were the ones which happened to hit the same POI, (all within about a 3/4" overlay, and all at a 2 o'clock position with relation to the bull) with the 39.2 grain group hitting low and left from that common POI by an inch. The 40.4 grain charge, in addition to moving high and right of the common POI for the three center charges, opened up in size to about 7/8". The 39.2 grain charge shot just under 1/2", but as I said, it wasn't near the common POI that the 39.5, 39.8, and 40.1 charges shared.

So I concluded that the best charge for this application was 39.8 grains of IMR 3031. This was the charge that would allow 39.5 grain charges and 40.1 grain charges to group right with it.

Why would I want that?

Well, variations in brass cases, powder lots, outside temperature--and other things can cause your load to increase or decrease in pressure. With the OCW load, you're covered for a significant amount of pressure differences that may come into play. If I'd gone with the 39.2 grain charge (the sub 1/2" group), a *slight* rise in pressure, brought on by an odd brass case or a hot day, etc., would have resulted in a 1 MOA deviation high and right of my POA.
 
I haven't messed with the seating depth yet. Right now they are about .010 thousands off of the lands I think (I'll repost for sure once I'm back around my shooting log book). A good non temperature sensitive load is what I was going for before I fine tune it with seating depth.
This is classic tail chasing right here.
 
Also, for any given load I would check that it prints the same size and relative position with and without the magnetospeed chrony attached.
 
Thank you all for the great inputs! If you refer back to my targets and look at 41.3, 41.5, and 41.7 and compare you will see that the center poi is the exact same for 41.3 and 41.7. The 41.5 was a little low and to the right compared to the other 2. Even though this is the case my logic is telling me to go with 41.5 since it is in between the 2 loads holding the same center poi. This is all strictly basing it off the center poi of the different charges not the size of the groups (although 41.3 just happened to be the best group). Do y'all feel that I am anilizing this correct?

Many thanks!
 
This is classic tail chasing right here.

Hey mike are you recommending that I should just stick with one load (probable 41.5) and mess with the seating depth at this point? I just verified that they were .010 off of the lans and every time I reload I check the oal on the ogive on every single load that I make. I read some of your other posts and I saw were it looked like you recommend doing the seating depth procedure before ocw. Thanks for sharing your advice and experiences.
 
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