Loading to magazine length/bent tips

I'm curious about how many other 300RUM reloaders have had the same experience?
It very much so depends on the ogive profile of the bullet. Bullets with secant profiles like ABLRs, Hornady ELDs, Berger VLDs can shoot fine with significant jump, they just might be more sensitive to changes in seating depth than tangent ogive profiles. The logic behind seating them deeper (see the link to Cal's study in the previous post) when they might typically shoot their best close to the lands is you can find a wider node set deeper where shot to shot variation is reduced. You might not have the absolute most efficient pairing of accuracy and precision like if you sat touching the lands, but you are in a more forgiving range that reduces shot to shot variance as the throat erodes in the barrel.

In my 300 RUM, ABLRs shoot better set back towards the SAAMI COL of 3.600", but 212 ELD-Xs and 210 VLDs don't. So it still comes down to figuring out what works best in your gun. I went to a fourth bullet option (Hammer 178 AHs and 180 HHs) instead of doing the Wyatt's box to see if a bullet change would negate the need to shoot such long loads.

What is the difference between a Secant, Tangent, and Hybrid Ogive?

A Tangent Ogive (like our standard BTs) is less sensitive to seating depth but has more drag and a lower BC than a Secant Ogive of the same length.


A Secant Ogive (like our standard VLDS) has a higher BC and lower drag than a traditional Tangent Ogive but can be quite sensitive to seating depth.


A Hybrid Ogive blends the best aspects of the tangent and secant nose shapes into one Ogive. It starts at the bearing surface with a tangent section that will align itself more effectively when the bullet contacts the rifling. Beyond this section, the shape transitions into a secant section which is proven to be more effective in the wind. The result is a high BC bullet that is easier to tune.

This chart from Cal's article is the crux of the matter - when comparing change in vertical by change in seating depth, the node is where variations in seating depth result in the least change, not where they produce the absolute smallest grouping. It pairs with his articles on statistics in shot groups in the context of PRC, where target size is relatively large and round counts are high. It's NOT a benchrest philosophy for chasing the smallest, most precise groups, it's a practical philosophy based on the constraints imposed in another discipline that rewards speed and accuracy over absolute precision and accuracy combined.
Bullet-Jump-for-Berger-105gr-Hybrid-with-Trend-Lines-645x450.png
 
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I've never experienced any problems in my custom 300RUM with any Nosler Accubond 200gr. or 210gr. bullets. But, it has been my experience that loading anywhere off the lands and grooves makes it shoot lousy groups. I have done better tuning my groups by measuring from the SAMMI specs and on my previous barrel, I got my best sub MOA group from going shorter. This has told me that this caliber needs a lot of jump for accuracy.
I'm curious about how many other 300RUM reloaders have had the same experience?
It's more the bullet than the caliber. I spoke with an engineer at Nosler. He told me the Ballistic Tip and Accubond bullets are designed to favor long jumps (he claimed up to 0.5"). The long-range online community reports fairly uniformly that secant-ogive bullets such as the Berger VLDs shoot more accurately when loaded close to the lands. Tangent and hybrid-ogive bullets are less sensitive to depth. Hybrid bullets such as the Bergers (see e.g. https://bergerbullets.com/product/30-caliber-215-grain-hybrid-target/) combine the tangent ogive with the secant tip, so they enjoy both insensitivity to seating depth and optimal aerodynamics.) There are other bullet attributes that relate to seating-depth sensitivity. For example, some cartridges use brass with longer necks. A long neck combined with a bullet having a long shank (the thick, tubular part in the middle) loaded deeply enough for much of the shank to pass through the neck means neck tension can help keep the bullet centered before the bullet touches the lands. . . . I've always enjoyed great accuracy from Nosler Ballistic Tips while loading them to SAAMI max. COAL. But I've also found that VLDs shoot best in my rifles when I load them 0.003"-0.005" off the lands. The Berger Hybrids don't seem to care very much.
 
From: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.300+Remington+Ultra+Magnum.html

Remington utilize extremely long free bore to achieve high velocities in the RUM's. This free bore acts as a gas expansion chamber, allowing for a long peak pressure wave. The .300 RUM uses up to .400" free bore, dictated by the available internal magazine lengths of typical magnum action rifles. In custom rifles, the magazines of the Winchester and Remington rifles can be altered to partially alleviate this potential problem thanks to the Wyatt Outdoors extended magazine box. But in standard form, the shooter can only experiment with ammunition and projectile brands and hope that a given projectile will enter the rifling squarely rather than off center and produce desirable accuracy.
 
It very much so depends on the ogive profile of the bullet. Bullets with secant profiles like ABLRs, Hornady ELDs, Berger VLDs can shoot fine with significant jump, they just might be more sensitive to changes in seating depth than tangent ogive profiles. The logic behind seating them deeper (see the link to Cal's study in the previous post) when they might typically shoot their best close to the lands is you can find a wider node set deeper where shot to shot variation is reduced. You might not have the absolute most efficient pairing of accuracy and precision like if you sat touching the lands, but you are in a more forgiving range that reduces shot to shot variance as the throat erodes in the barrel.

In my 300 RUM, ABLRs shoot better set back towards the SAAMI COL of 3.600", but 212 ELD-Xs and 210 VLDs don't. So it still comes down to figuring out what works best in your gun. I went to a fourth bullet option (Hammer 178 AHs and 180 HHs) instead of doing the Wyatt's box to see if a bullet change would negate the need to shoot such long loads.



This chart from Cal's article is the crux of the matter - when comparing change in vertical by change in seating depth, the node is where variations in seating depth result in the least change, not where they produce the absolute smallest grouping. It pairs with his articles on statistics in shot groups in the context of PRC, where target size is relatively large and round counts are high. It's NOT a benchrest philosophy for chasing the smallest, most precise groups, it's a practical philosophy based on the constraints imposed in another discipline that rewards speed and accuracy over absolute precision and accuracy combined.
View attachment 278834
That sounds like a great article!
 
From: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.300+Remington+Ultra+Magnum.html

Remington utilize extremely long free bore to achieve high velocities in the RUM's. This free bore acts as a gas expansion chamber, allowing for a long peak pressure wave. The .300 RUM uses up to .400" free bore, dictated by the available internal magazine lengths of typical magnum action rifles. In custom rifles, the magazines of the Winchester and Remington rifles can be altered to partially alleviate this potential problem thanks to the Wyatt Outdoors extended magazine box. But in standard form, the shooter can only experiment with ammunition and projectile brands and hope that a given projectile will enter the rifling squarely rather than off center and produce desirable accuracy.

I agree with the reasoning about what long freebore does. But 'freebore' is synonymous with 'throat' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freebore), which ends where the rifling starts (the back of the leade). If I'm reading the SAAMI-standard 300 RUM chamber specification right (see my post above), the RUM only has about 0.12" of freebore. That's nothing like the half inch or so in some Weatherbys. It is true that serious shooters will sometimes have custom reamers built, or have gunsmiths use non-standard reamers, to get longer throats (both to seat longer bullets and to enjoy the pressure effect you describe). But unless I'm reading the SAAMI spec wrong, 300 RUMs don't have lots of freebore. Am I reading the diagram wrong?
 
Is there too much distance between the case shoulder and the retaining groove on the magazine box allowing the cartridge to move excessively?
 
Ok, let's get some things squared away here.
The throat is that part of a chamber, including the leade, that is free from any rifling forward of the neck of the cartridge.
The length of the throat is the entire portion.
Freebore is a term that describes a throat that is longer than conventional length.
Leade is generally the tapered section of the throat. Many throats have 1.5° or 3° leades, but there are many different angles in use.
There is no hard and fast rule about whether a bullet is accurate close to the rifling or far away, those statements made by people that bullets are more accurate close to the rifling know very little.
Just because ONE bullet in a sample of ONE time happened to be the most accurate, after doing close seating depth tests, and then say a blanket statement that that bullet LIKES to be close just isn't true. There are several distances that barrel harmonics will have a bullet exit at that are relatively still in oscillation....I know, I test, just the same as I can take a ****** combo, change primer brand and have the load shoot bug holes.
There are no set rules with accuracy, what works for ONE rifle may be a complete TURD in another. Too much emphasis, rightly or wrongly, is focused on seating Bullets close to the rifling, this notion that a bullet tips on it's way to the rifling when far away is rubbish, the throat parameters control this, barrel harmonics determine accuracy/precision.

Cheers.
 
Ok, let's get some things squared away here.
The throat is that part of a chamber, including the leade, that is free from any rifling forward of the neck of the cartridge.
The length of the throat is the entire portion.
Freebore is a term that describes a throat that is longer than conventional length.
Leade is generally the tapered section of the throat. Many throats have 1.5° or 3° leades, but there are many different angles in use.
There is no hard and fast rule about whether a bullet is accurate close to the rifling or far away, those statements made by people that bullets are more accurate close to the rifling know very little.
Just because ONE bullet in a sample of ONE time happened to be the most accurate, after doing close seating depth tests, and then say a blanket statement that that bullet LIKES to be close just isn't true. There are several distances that barrel harmonics will have a bullet exit at that are relatively still in oscillation....I know, I test, just the same as I can take a ****** combo, change primer brand and have the load shoot bug holes.
There are no set rules with accuracy, what works for ONE rifle may be a complete TURD in another. Too much emphasis, rightly or wrongly, is focused on seating Bullets close to the rifling, this notion that a bullet tips on it's way to the rifling when far away is rubbish, the throat parameters control this, barrel harmonics determine accuracy/precision.

Cheers.
 
Is there any measurable accuracy degradation from the deformed tips? I have this same problem in my .30 06
Not that I have ever witnessed, but I remember seeing an article in Rifleshooter magazine that they tested deformed tips and normal tips and nothing was seen at 600yrds to say it was affecting accuracy.
I did shoot some 225g Accubonds out of my 338-416 Rigby Improved at 600 with the plastic tip removed....drops were considerably more. But with tips still in place and bent or squashed, no difference was seen.

Cheers.
 
Not that I have ever witnessed, but I remember seeing an article in Rifleshooter magazine that they tested deformed tips and normal tips and nothing was seen at 600yrds to say it was affecting accuracy.
I did shoot some 225g Accubonds out of my 338-416 Rigby Improved at 600 with the plastic tip removed....drops were considerably more. But with tips still in place and bent or squashed, no difference was seen.

Cheers.

Well for me I'm not even going to worry about it out of my hunting rifle. Moving along now.
 
Your definitions of 'throat' and 'freebore' differ from what I've seen in some other sources. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freebore says the cylindrical and smooth throat ends at the back of the leade, and the leade tapers down from the (unrifled) throat to the fully rifled bore (so that the rifling starts at the back of the leade and gets deeper as you move forward, until the rifling achieves full depth at the back of the bore). According to that article (and the half-dozen books it cites), 'freebore' and 'throat' are synonymous. Here's that article's diagram:

1623386171305.png


In contrast, the current Nosler and Hornady reloading manuals treat 'throat', 'freebore', and 'leade' as synonyms. The Hornady guide describes the throat/leade/freebore as the "smooth" part of the chamber forward of the case and aft of any rifling. That would make the tapered/semi-rifled section part of the bore, rather than giving the tapered part its own name. It's worth pointing out that the SAAMI diagrams and the reloading manuals agree about this much: the diameter of the smooth, cylindrical part of the chamber immediately forward of the case is larger than the diameter of the bullet shank. For example, the 300 RUM's chamber is 0.3091" in the smooth, cylindrical part, while its bore is exactly 0.3000". So the bullet will not touch the chamber while traversing this part of it, if the bullet remains well centered. The bullet is "free" in this part of the chamber. That suggests a reason for making 'throat' and 'freebore' synonymous. The bullet seats itself into the "lands" (where the bullet lands coming out of the "free" part of the chamber). The lands are somewhere in the tapered part of the chamber. So the bullet is not "free" throughout the tapered part.

All of this indicates to me that the words 'throat', 'leade', and 'freebore' are used in several ways, depending on what you read. Note however that 'freebore' does not refer to an unusually long chamber, by either account. It just refers to one or two consecutive sections of the colored diagram, and it connotes the fact that a bullet may not touch the barrel when it first accelerates until the bullet's ogive touches the lands. But I think we can agree (by inspecting SAAMI-specification diagrams) that most rifle chambers have the five differently colored sections in the Wikipedia article's picture, regardless of what you call them. (Looking at the 243 Winchester diagram just now, it seems not to have the smooth, cylindrical part. I wonder about that.) For now let's call the light-blue part the smooth, cylindrical part, and the dark-grey part the partially rifled, tapered transition part.

Here's my point about the 300 RUM: the smooth, cylindrical part of the 300 RUM's chamber is about 0.12" long, which is 2/3 what you find in the 280 AI, and way less than the 0.3" or so in the 300 Weatherby Magnum. The 300 RUM's partially rifled, tapered transition from smooth cylinder to bore is tapered at exactly one degree. This makes the transition zone longer than it would be if it had the more common transition-zone-taper angle of around 1.3-1.5 degrees. To illustrate the variation: the 28 Nosler and the 7mm Remington Magnum transition at 3.0 degrees, the 280 AI and 300 Winchester Magnum at about 1.4 degrees. The 300 Weatherby transitions at about 1.03 degrees, almost the same as the 300 RUM. (If you poke around in the SAAMI specification enough, you'll find an old rifle cartridge that transitions at 25 degrees!)

Here's the trigonometry: x = ((0.3091 - 0.3000) / 2) / tan(1) = 0.261. That is, the length of the tapered part of the RUM's chamber is 0.261". If the RUM had a 1.5-degree taper, that number would decrease to 0.174", shortening the tapered part by 0.087". The distance from brass to bore would reduce from about 0.3" to about 0.2". In the Weatherby you have over a half inch from brass to bore. Changing that taper would reduce that length to around 0.4". One could argue that the gentle taper is meant to increase jump (distance from seated ogive to lands). Both the RUM and the Weatherby have that gentle taper. But the Weatherby has way more smooth, cylindrical part.

Here's a fine point: the Weatherby's smooth, cylindrical part is 0.3084" in diameter, giving gases 8% less diameter and 15% less surface area to move around the bullet than in the RUM (but three times as much jump length to do it).

So comparing the 300 RUM and 300 Weatherby chambers, you conclude that the RUM has about a third as much smooth, cylindrical part as the Weatherby, and about the same length of partially rifled, tapered transition part. Overall the Weatherby has nearly twice the jump of the RUM. In the Weatherby far more than the RUM, this long jump lets gases from the overbore case escape around the bullet, before it seats itself at the lands. Judging from the numbers I see in the SAAMI specs for a variety of modern big-game calibers, the RUM's jump is pretty typical.

Having said all that: a few hundred rounds down the road, and the 300 RUM's throat will have suffered significant erosion, increasing the jump substantially. The 300 RUM (like the Weatherby) is hard on barrels. Like other barrel-burner calibers, you can expect "good accuracy" to last for 500 to 1,000 rounds, depending on how well you treat your gun. Imagine the erosion rate and the resulting jump in a 300 Weatherby chamber, and how that might affect accuracy after a few hundred rounds.

There's a whole other debate about "chasing the lands" by lengthening your cartridges and changing your powder loads every 50-100 rounds, to preserve load tuning and accuracy as the throat erodes. I don't have an opinion on the wisdom in that, but I'd love to hear others' opinions.

Internal and external ballistics both are engineering disciplines that draw their methods from physics, chemistry, metallurgy, aeronautical engineering, and similarly quantitative hard-science subjects. Ballistics questions admit very precise answers. Language such as, "Let's get some things squared away here" treats ballistics as if it were a subject far more rife with uncertainty, such as politics or trial law. I encourage participants in this forum to set aside the sentiments that often become agitated when discussing such subjects, recognizing that we are discussing matters where it is quite practical to measure, calculate, or specify physical realities to the nearest ten-thousandth of an inch (chamber and reamer dimensions), or to five out of three thousand feet per second (muzzle velocities). We are not quite doing particle physics, but we are also not arguing about how much of a federal deficit is prudent during peacetime. We can all be friends here.
 
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