Light Varmint, where are you?

[goodgrouper]

Hello GG,

One of the readership contacted me and suggested that I "make time" and check out your recent irrelevant and ridiculous postings..... I must say, that I cannot get past this one and will not be reading your other drivel. However, and for your information, I have been putting in fall food plots, preparing the spring food plot sites, doing some hunting, scouting, working on planting equipment and waiting on the new dies to test the generation II HAT bullets. Thankfully, the final shipment of dies were sent out last Friday and should arrive this week. However, Mr Henson has been busy with his shotgun slug projects, low velocity expandable projects and 50 BMG projects. So he has not sat idle.

However, your research into our hunting seasons is as non-impressive (and as inaccurate) as your bullet testing methods. Our season starts on 8/15 and goes until 1/1 and that puts your assertion where it belongs............ In the toilet! Then, we have a two week season in the first part of January in Mississippi. So, you might want to improve your research techniques on hunting seasons and get your information more accurate than your testing methods for bullets. When you do all the math, we only have about five months (4.5 in SC and .5 in Mississippi) of deer seasons to test these bullets. I wish we had more, but this is the best we could do.

Now for the profitable response. For your information, not one HAT bullet has been fired at a deer by me. Based on the posting you have made about them zipping through the animals and me subsequently "playing the old ostrich trick", that entitles me to some cash and I want to thank you in advance for making the cash offer and I will gladly accept the wager and inform you that you have in fact lost your money. I will post to the readership the results of you following up on your wager.

Please send the advertised funds to me at:

James D. McCallum
PO Box 671
Goose Creek, SC 29445-0671

As soon as the HAT Generation II bullets are tested, you guys will be notified and you can contact the bullet maker for all photos and results.

Just for information and to prevent any confusion, the intial dies that were used for the HAT bullets were "off the shelf dies from Dave Corbin of Corbin custom dies (not Cabelas, Gander Mountain, Bass Pro Shops or Sears Mr Tilley)" from a die maker and without any intended use with aluminum-tipped bullets. The reason we are going to the Gen II bullets is because of the ballistically-slick dies that have been on order for upwards of a year are finally ready. Secondly, the Gen II bullets have always been an option since two sets of dies were in the picture and they will have a higher BC than the Gen I versions. The Gen I dies had some "quirks" that required extra steps and the Gen II dies do not have these same "quirks". I can find no reason to use up resources for testing bullets from dies that will not be used anymore (except when ground to a new configuration/caliber). And, no, GG we did not change anything due to your testing. The only thing that changed was our weight. We lost several pounds both discussing and laughing at your bullet testing attempts and subsequent conclusions. Thanks for the aerobic laughter and for a hot topic that fueled many conversations........... And, laughter is good medicine. I just want to make it crystal-clear that your testing has done nothing to influence the bullet design, production, or ammendment of any design of the HAT bullets. FWIW, had the Gen II bullet dies been available earlier in the year, they would have been the Gen I versions and we would have had testing results by now. At least the two bucks I have killed so far could have provided some live animal results for you guys. BTW, does this mean I get two-hundred more dollars or just the initial one-hundred?

Another thing that we have been doing is some research on bullet testing methods to ascertain wound channels and destructive capabilities. So far, all the material (reliable) has indicated that it must really be on live animals with blood pressure present at the time of impact. The reference in P.O. Ackley books states that testing dead animals was akin to shooting into modeling clay and not really accurate as compare to the live animal testing. Additionally, anything other than the live animals (goats) did not suffice for the referenced testing and really won't suffice for the HAT bullets either. After all, most of us have done our intial expansion testing of new bullets on live animals when we go to the field with a new bullet design or configuration. I don't know or have heard of anyone or any company (except for the federal gov't) that purchases live stock for impact and expansion testing.....

Finally, GG, I don't understand your interest in the results of our testing or the HAT bullets. Haven't you already done your testing, formed all your conclusions, published your results and had them validated by other "keyboard experts" and put into the record of absolutes? Frankly, I find it amusing that you remain interested in these bullets that you have proclaimed as less than acceptable by your standards.

Anyway, enough keyboard time for now. Time to cultipack some clover.......

Lightvarmint

Interesting LV. Very interesting. But so very contradictory. Where do I begin? How about here:
Earlier in the year, you stated that your hunt began in August so you would have some live animal testing to show us "very soon" as in several weeks. So my conclusion from what you said was that you were going to go hunting and try to kill something at the first of your season. Now you say you have until new years day to hunt and you have been busy playing in the dirt? Contradictory. And by the way, I didn't do any research on your hunt season. How could I do that if I don't even know what state you live in??? And why would I care anyway? My research methods far exceed anything you've obviously ever dreamed of for yourself so that is a non-issue. I simply had to go off what you told us which is certainly a mistake I won't make again.

As for the Benjamin on the table, when did you get the idea that that friendly wager was with you?! That was something I said to Ron Tilley and had nothing to do with you. And even if it was said to you, the bet would not be over yet (now pay attention here) because YOU HAVE YET TO KILL ANYTHING WITH THESE BULLETS!!! Am I wrong?! Nice try to though.


Another point: I find it horribly and terribly unethical to test new bullets on game without so much as running media test beforehand. You believe they will work because you have so much invested in them and they "just look so darned good" but the fact is, every major bullet maker in the world who intends their bullets to be used on game tests and retests thier bullets in media before releasing them to the public. The disrespect for life you have is astounding. How can you pull the trigger on an animal and not have the slightest idea what the bullet is going to do to it? You are in effect gambling with life that is not your's to gamble with. It's a serious lack of character. But then again, we have already seen your character on display here and it is no surprise.


And I am glad you are going to disregard my testing of your holy bullets. I figured you would. Ignorance is bliss and your drowning in a sea of it. I have tested just about every game bullet on the market in the same way I tested yours and yours placed second on the FAIL lists right under Lapua Scenars. If a bullet is going to work at long range, it will open up in my tests regardless of any factors you have mentioned. Period. I have the photos and long range kills to prove it. If you find it humorous, I don't care. You can learn from other's experiences in this life or you can ignore it and hope for the best. Either way, you as a person and businessman have demonstrated your worth with full clarity and I couldn't care less what happens to you or your precious bullets. I simply was curious as to see if my testing proved right and you didn't have the balls to show us the failures, or to see if you were going to come up with yet another excuse for not showing us any testing data, or finally if you were going to show us a photoshopped lie and try to pass it by us "less educated" types. The ball is in your court ane we are STILL WAITING. This should be interesting.


And btw, if you didn't know, PO Ackley had his shop not more than 50 miles from me and there are many of the old timers around here who knew him personally and used his gunsmithing services and I have talked with many of them. I also own his volumes and from my research by these two sources, Ackley believed the bullets would not react the same without blood pressure because he was studying the effects of light weight bullets at high velocities which rely on hydrostatic shock to kill. Unfortunately, we use big, long, heavy bullets which have reduced their impact velocity to way below Ackley's high impact testing and the hydrostatic shock factor is greatly reduced as well. It's apples to oranges comparison so you might want to do some better research next time! Then again, I know you won't.

 

[goodgrouper]

By the way, here is something everyone might find interesting. Here is a recovered 300 grain SMK that I pulled out of an elk this weekend that I shot at 915 yards. It is sitting next to another 300 grain SMK that was fired into the media test right alongside the HAT bullets in the now infamous test. Hmmmm, they look pretty similar don't they. Oh but my test was so irrelevant and it won't prove how bullets work at long range! I'm so glad LV was around to tell me my tests don't work!

 

[tillroot1]

Interesting LV. Very interesting. But so very contradictory. Where do I begin? How about here:
Earlier in the year, you stated that your hunt began in August so you would have some live animal testing to show us "very soon" as in several weeks. So my conclusion from what you said was that you were going to go hunting and try to kill something at the first of your season. Now you say you have until new years day to hunt and you have been busy playing in the dirt? Contradictory. And by the way, I didn't do any research on your hunt season. How could I do that if I don't even know what state you live in??? And why would I care anyway? My research methods far exceed anything you've obviously ever dreamed of for yourself so that is a non-issue. I simply had to go off what you told us which is certainly a mistake I won't make again.

As for the Benjamin on the table, when did you get the idea that that friendly wager was with you?! That was something I said to Ron Tilley and had nothing to do with you. And even if it was said to you, the bet would not be over yet (now pay attention here) because YOU HAVE YET TO KILL ANYTHING WITH THESE BULLETS!!! Am I wrong?! Nice try to though.


Another point: I find it horribly and terribly unethical to test new bullets on game without so much as running media test beforehand. You believe they will work because you have so much invested in them and they "just look so darned good" but the fact is, every major bullet maker in the world who intends their bullets to be used on game tests and retests thier bullets in media before releasing them to the public. The disrespect for life you have is astounding. How can you pull the trigger on an animal and not have the slightest idea what the bullet is going to do to it? You are in effect gambling with life that is not your's to gamble with. It's a serious lack of character. But then again, we have already seen your character on display here and it is no surprise.


And I am glad you are going to disregard my testing of your holy bullets. I figured you would. Ignorance is bliss and your drowning in a sea of it. I have tested just about every game bullet on the market in the same way I tested yours and yours placed second on the FAIL lists right under Lapua Scenars. If a bullet is going to work at long range, it will open up in my tests regardless of any factors you have mentioned. Period. I have the photos and long range kills to prove it. If you find it humorous, I don't care. You can learn from other's experiences in this life or you can ignore it and hope for the best. Either way, you as a person and businessman have demonstrated your worth with full clarity and I couldn't care less what happens to you or your precious bullets. I simply was curious as to see if my testing proved right and you didn't have the balls to show us the failures, or to see if you were going to come up with yet another excuse for not showing us any testing data, or finally if you were going to show us a photoshopped lie and try to pass it by us "less educated" types. The ball is in your court ane we are STILL WAITING. This should be interesting.


And btw, if you didn't know, PO Ackley had his shop not more than 50 miles from me and there are many of the old timers around here who knew him personally and used his gunsmithing services and I have talked with many of them. I also own his volumes and from my research by these two sources, Ackley believed the bullets would not react the same without blood pressure because he was studying the effects of light weight bullets at high velocities which rely on hydrostatic shock to kill. Unfortunately, we use big, long, heavy bullets which have reduced their impact velocity to way below Ackley's high impact testing and the hydrostatic shock factor is greatly reduced as well. It's apples to oranges comparison so you might want to do some better research next time! Then again, I know you won't.

goodgrouper, my experience with little varmint started on snipershide.com a few months ago, I saw the post here about the HAT bullets and wanted to know more so I posted on thier forum, asking a general question about anyone that had used or tried them an thier opinions on them. little varmint that goes by master chief over there immediatly responded over there stating that he saw no need for me to ask questions there because he had covered all the bases here. And then started pushing for me to pm him if I had questions because he was the tester for HAT. He was persistant on working by pm's and that raised questions with me like he felt the need to hide something. It ended with a teenage attack on me in the form of a pm, so that is why I have a pony in this race, purely to get under his skin and have him show his true colors. I would think that the bullet smith building these would have something to say from all of this, he did respond to my thread on the other site when I was trying to make them work in my gun, but that was it. I would certainly look and choose someone way more people skilled and knowing of the product to reduce the contradictory statements and defensive stance that he instantly takes on to push my product successfully if I was selling bullets, or anything for that matter. I am on his ignore list now, so I will still try to lure him out from time to time just to make him remember who I am. Ron Tilley

 

[tillroot1]

goodgrouper, congrads on your 915 yard harvest, I plan to take a Antelope in Wyoming in Nov from long range using the 300 grain SMK. Ron Tilley

 

[goodgrouper]

goodgrouper, congrads on your 915 yard harvest, I plan to take a Antelope in Wyoming in Nov from long range using the 300 grain SMK. Ron Tilley

Thanks Ron. The SMK performed flawlessly for me again. I wish you luck on your speedgoat hunt. At least you'll be using a bullet that WORKS!

 

[tillroot1]

Thanks Ron. The SMK performed flawlessly for me again. I wish you luck on your speedgoat hunt. At least you'll be using a bullet that WORKS!

goodgrouper, I wanted to let you know that I have a friend that harvested a great bull at 768 yds and a cow at a incredible 1013 yds, using the 300 grain SMK, a bullet was found under the hide from the off shoulder and I plan on weighing it and taking a picture, it went throught both shoulders high. I am leaving for Wy this friday and will hope for a few long range shots as I have 4 tags to fill. I will post the results. Ron Tilley

 

[Lightvarmint]

GG,

I know from the title of your thread that you are extremely anxious (probably sitting on the edge of your computer commando chair) to get the real live meat test results of the HAT bullets..... Well here it is as you requested and you owe Mr Tilley some money (Benjamins I think it was). The bullets expand predictably on even our smallish SC deer (even without hitting a bone) as they worked very well on the live meat test the other day. Seems as though sand boxes, phone books and plywood did not replicate the resistance of a live game animal with blood pressure present during bullet impacts. BTW, Army ordnance testers found this out several decades ago and that is why they used goats to test small arm ammunition. So with this actual meat test we proved three theories:

--We proved that the bullets worked as intended and designed.

--We proved that the above testing media (sandboxes, phonebooks and plywood) does not replicate live animal results.

--Wet clay formed to the desired dimensions of the penetration test is very close to live animal results.

Anyway, the bullet worked flawlessly (complete penetration, no blowup and excellent wound channel). In other words a bang-flop and the deer never took a step. It was a 405 yard shot from 24" factory 300 Win Mag Sendero special using a .308 180 grainer.

Even when I tried my first new fancy projectile or loaded ammo offering for the first time out of my guns on wild game, it was always an act of faith. Since there is always a first time, you never really know until it is attempted and proved one way or another by someone! I am sure the same thing will occur with the new bullet offerings and designs in the future.

Anyway, they work very well, thanks for your interest and have a nice day.

James

 

[goodgrouper]

GG,

I know from the title of your thread that you are extremely anxious (probably sitting on the edge of your computer commando chair) to get the real live meat test results of the HAT bullets..... Well here it is as you requested and you owe Mr Tilley some money (Benjamins I think it was). The bullets expand predictably on even our smallish SC deer (even without hitting a bone) as they worked very well on the live meat test the other day. Seems as though sand boxes, phone books and plywood did not replicate the resistance of a live game animal with blood pressure present during bullet impacts. BTW, Army ordnance testers found this out several decades ago and that is why they used goats to test small arm ammunition. So with this actual meat test we proved three theories:

--We proved that the bullets worked as intended and designed.

--We proved that the above testing media (sandboxes, phonebooks and plywood) does not replicate live animal results.

--Wet clay formed to the desired dimensions of the penetration test is very close to live animal results.

Anyway, the bullet worked flawlessly (complete penetration, no blowup and excellent wound channel). In other words a bang-flop and the deer never took a step. It was a 405 yard shot from 24" factory 300 Win Mag Sendero special using a .308 180 grainer.

Even when I tried my first new fancy projectile or loaded ammo offering for the first time out of my guns on wild game, it was always an act of faith. Since there is always a first time, you never really know until it is attempted and proved one way or another by someone! I am sure the same thing will occur with the new bullet offerings and designs in the future.

Anyway, they work very well, thanks for your interest and have a nice day.

James

THat is so very interesting LV. Unfortunately, the word of a liar ain't much good around here no more. You should have had the slightest inclination that we were going to need real proof to believe your story after the crap you've tried to pass off to the good people here on this site. Just you saying "they worked" doesn't hold much water. We are going to need some better proof. Pictures, video, witness accounts, something. ANd preferrably more than one instance. I saw a FMJ kill a deer once. Doesn't mean that it was the right bullet. It meant that it killed one deer, from a neck shot.

So that puts us right back where we started....still waiting.

 

[jwp475]

I don't care how good those bullets are I'd not buy any because of the lack of people skills and lack of class shown by the one promoting them. What an *** IMHO

 

[Lightvarmint]

THat is so very interesting LV. Unfortunately, the word of a liar ain't much good around here no more. You should have had the slightest inclination that we were going to need real proof to believe your story after the crap you've tried to pass off to the good people here on this site. Just you saying "they worked" doesn't hold much water. We are going to need some better proof. Pictures, video, witness accounts, something. ANd preferrably more than one instance. I saw a FMJ kill a deer once. Doesn't mean that it was the right bullet. It meant that it killed one deer, from a neck shot.

So that puts us right back where we started....still waiting.

GG,

I am not inclined to jump through ridiculous hoops just to satisfy someone or even a few folks who are genuinely not interested in the outcome or the details (whether they are postive or negative). Pictures nor videos would probably not do you any good as I doubt you would believe them and you would probably claim they were false. If we had witnesses and signed statments I seriously doubt that you would believe them (you would probably claim that they were liars too) either and that is your perogative. But don't waste my time by starting a thread on a website calling me out and asking me for bullet test results and then when you get those results, claim someone is being dishonest because the test on a live deer with blood pressure present does not agree with your tests in a dry stack of phone books.

For your information, 300gr SMKs have very thin jackets and they are somewhat brittle which is significantly different than Mr Hensons bullets. They behave much different than the HATS (at least down here at 82 feet of altitude). I have not been dishonest and suggest that you seriously consider your words very closely. Even the Nosler folks took the bad news about their custom ammunition line when I (a nobody in the bullet world) did the evaluation and provided them the results earlier this year. Instead of ingnoring the facts/findings and claiming that I was a liar, they went to work and fixed the problem.... They were very appreciative of my evaluation based on the material they sent me.....

Here we are in November, you seem to have completely lost your objectivity of the subject matter and your strong opinions have put you in a position where you obviously feel the need to recoil out at the tester (me) since the outcome did not match your published predictions and expectations. It appears to me that your ego may be slightly damaged. Hopefully it is not damaged too much over a successful meat test of a new style bullet constructed by Mr RG Henson of Cartersville Georgia ([email protected]).

If you don't like the test results, then that is fine but it does not change them...... More results will be posted when they occur. Since this is YOUR thread, I will post them on a different thread since you are obviously not genuinely interested in anything but a negative finding and arguing from a point of significant disadvantage.

I really wonder if you would have questioned my integrity and the validity of the test results if the bullets had failed and I had subsequently reported that they failed and did not work? Man, I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.

You asked for the results and you got them......... Too bad you don't have it in you to accept the very results you asked me to provide even if they were positive and proved that the bullets expand well in muscle tissue and penetrate well after expansion. The higher BC non-bonded HAT bullet wound channel very closely resembled (in size and geometry) the wound channels that I have witnessed from lower BC Accubond bullets on animals shot at similar distances and shot aspects.

Maybe you just don't want to pay Mr Tilley the Benjamins............

Hopefully, I will get out to the upcoming Cactus BR match and we can do some shootin. Have a nice day.

Lightvarmint

 

[MagMan]

Hopefully I will have some proof ie. video, pictures and a taste test after the 15th. I have many does to whack.

 

[goodgrouper]

GG,

I am not inclined to jump through ridiculous hoops just to satisfy someone or even a few folks who are genuinely not interested in the outcome or the details (whether they are postive or negative). Pictures nor videos would probably not do you any good as I doubt you would believe them and you would probably claim they were false. If we had witnesses and signed statments I seriously doubt that you would believe them (you would probably claim that they were liars too) either and that is your perogative. But don't waste my time by starting a thread on a website calling me out and asking me for bullet test results and then when you get those results, claim someone is being dishonest because the test on a live deer with blood pressure present does not agree with your tests in a dry stack of phone books.

For your information, 300gr SMKs have very thin jackets and they are somewhat brittle which is significantly different than Mr Hensons bullets. They behave much different than the HATS (at least down here at 82 feet of altitude). I have not been dishonest and suggest that you seriously consider your words very closely. Even the Nosler folks took the bad news about their custom ammunition line when I (a nobody in the bullet world) did the evaluation and provided them the results earlier this year. Instead of ingnoring the facts/findings and claiming that I was a liar, they went to work and fixed the problem.... They were very appreciative of my evaluation based on the material they sent me.....

Here we are in November, you seem to have completely lost your objectivity of the subject matter and your strong opinions have put you in a position where you obviously feel the need to recoil out at the tester (me) since the outcome did not match your published predictions and expectations. It appears to me that your ego may be slightly damaged. Hopefully it is not damaged too much over a successful meat test of a new style bullet constructed by Mr RG Henson of Cartersville Georgia ([email protected]).

If you don't like the test results, then that is fine but it does not change them...... More results will be posted when they occur. Since this is YOUR thread, I will post them on a different thread since you are obviously not genuinely interested in anything but a negative finding and arguing from a point of significant disadvantage.

I really wonder if you would have questioned my integrity and the validity of the test results if the bullets had failed and I had subsequently reported that they failed and did not work? Man, I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.

You asked for the results and you got them......... Too bad you don't have it in you to accept the very results you asked me to provide even if they were positive and proved that the bullets expand well in muscle tissue and penetrate well after expansion. The higher BC non-bonded HAT bullet wound channel very closely resembled (in size and geometry) the wound channels that I have witnessed from lower BC Accubond bullets on animals shot at similar distances and shot aspects.

Maybe you just don't want to pay Mr Tilley the Benjamins............

Hopefully, I will get out to the upcoming Cactus BR match and we can do some shootin. Have a nice day.

Lightvarmint

I'm obviously dealing with someone here who has a serious lack of common sense and/or intelligence. LV, you need to try to understand a few things if you possibly can.

First, I am still interested in actual results (that's right, plural) of these bullets. You are mistaking my lack of faith in your credibility as arguing with your result. If you truly had a wonderful and fantastic terminal ballistic result on your one doe deer, than I say that is great. But can you blame me for not wanting to believe you? Even if you had shown unbiased proof of anything, I would still ask questions. But you really haven't shown any proof yet biased or non so forgive me for needing a little more proof. My testing was unbiased, and was posted to help you with a problem I saw, not to belittle you. Yet, that is how YOU took it and you shouldn't get in a tissy if I call you on it. My testing has proved itself to work on many, many bullets and have thus resulted in far greater long distance kills than you have even thought of in your own life and we both know that so again, forgive me if I put stock in them and you don't.

Second, about your business ethics. Well, they stink. You've already managed to turn a lot of people off your product just by how you acted here. I didn't help you ruin that. You did it all by yourself. ANd on my personal note, I can deal with bad business manners to a point, but this whole second set of dies crap was BULL. I specifically asked you if these bullets I tested were going to be available in the future without a doubt and you said, "yes". I then further let you know that they have to be because if I was going to test them, I had limited barrel life and wanted to know I was testing the final product and you said, "yes". Then it turns out, before I EVEN HAD PUT YOUR BULLETS IN BRASS, there was already replacement dies on the way to replace the first set and the bullets I was testing were obsolete before they even arrived in my mailbox! That is bad business sir. NOt to mention a lie. I don't take to kindly to liars LV and you need serious help in that department.

Thirdly, you seem to be hung up on the figure of speech bet Ron and I had for some reason as you keep mentioning it like you are going to see any more money from me or something. As I said before, the bet was with Ron, and the bet was void as WE BOTH BET ON THE SAME THING! That you would try to shoot some deer with experimental bullets that hadn't been tested on anything beforehand and it would be a wounded deer. Have we any proof otherwise???? Nope. Just your word and we've already described what that's worth around here. Here's an idea, get Greyghost on here to tell us the story. I don't even care if he has pictures or video. Just get him on here to say his bullets worked and I would believe him.

And lastly, I have a question for you. Why get so bent out of shape about a bullet that failed my humble little test if the bullet I tested wasn't even the bullet that is for sale anymore? What is it to you? Why make a big stink about it? Why insult me and get into a battle you know you can't win when all I was trying to do was show results to help you make a better bullet. This whole thing has almost become null and void because you are now using different bullets to hunt with than the bullets I originally tested! With every word you type, you are getting further and further down a dead end road. But so am I as I am arguing with a man that can't seem to play with a full deck.

By the way, I will be at the Cactus with bells on (again, that is a figure of speech, I won't actually be wearing bells) and I am looking forward to seeing you there. Perhaps you'll have some pictures to show me?

 

[tillroot1]

goodgrouper, be carefull, you will end up on his ignore list like me. I too think that its funny, no pictures or any proof on the testing, he is interested in tit for tat, still full of himself! I think by the first post that he is not even the one pulling the trigger for whatever testing that is going on.
I am in Wyoming right now, and have had good success with the 300 grain SMK, taking 2 mulie does at a respective 768 and 805 yards. I recovered 1 bullet from one of the does, and then on the Antelope opener, I harvested a great buck at 913 yards. Most of the bucks have started shedding in my area but I found a good one that still had both of his horns. A storm is coming in tonight and I will start to coyote hunt tomorrow, hopefully some good long range shots comming again.

I will take the 300 grain SMK any day. Ron Tilley

 

[tillroot1]

good grouper, you covered things pretty well, especially the die thing, I have pushed that point all along, again, well said.
Ron Tilley