Ladder Tests

[FURMAN]

I prefer ladders but no closer than 400 yards. I would prefer at least 600. I think they are quicker to find the accuracy node. If I can not get to 400 I would use the OCW.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The most accurate rifles in the world (1k Benchrest) that I know of are tuned with ladders. And for a very good reason. These rifles are consistently winning and setting world records. I can usually tune a hunting rifle in under 20 rounds and get it shooting sub .3moa. Fine tune from there if needed. I recommend ladders to all of my customers, as its not only the most efficient, it will extract the most accuracy from a rifle. Do them at the longest distance you can. I like 600 for hunting rifles or 1000 for competition rifles.

 

[rcoody]

Never done one yet. Need to learn a bit more about them before. Let's hear, do you like them, yes or no and maybe a comment about why you like them or not.

tks

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/long-range-load-development/

 

[dsculley]

All the methods work, whether Ladder, OCW or Satterlee's 10 round load development. Properly done they will all lead to the same place. I see no reason not to use the one you feel most confident in, then verify with another method if you wish. Having a chronograph helps with the first two and is mandatory using Satterlee's method.

One thing to watch for on the OCW: Locating a scatter node can be as beneficial as locating an accuracy node. According to Dan, and I have seen this with my rifles, nodes are typically about 3% apart. Therefore, if you locate a scatter node, multiply that charge by 1.015 and that should put you on an accuracy node. Dan recommends that the OCW be shot at 100 yds so wind is not usually a factor.

I am not as experienced as some of you at long range, but I have never had a load that shot well at short range that did not shoot well at long range.

 

[FURMAN]

All the methods work, whether Ladder, OCW or Satterlee's 10 round load development. Properly done they will all lead to the same place. I see no reason not to use the one you feel most confident in, then verify with another method if you wish. Having a chronograph helps with the first two and is mandatory using Satterlee's method.

One thing to watch for on the OCW: Locating a scatter node can be as beneficial as locating an accuracy node. According to Dan, and I have seen this with my rifles, nodes are typically about 3% apart. Therefore, if you locate a scatter node, multiply that charge by 1.015 and that should put you on an accuracy node. Dan recommends that the OCW be shot at 100 yds so wind is not usually a factor.

I am not as experienced as some of you at long range, but I have never had a load that shot well at short range that did not shoot well at long range.

I have seen many very accurate groups shot in the scatter node. They look great on paper but will not hold up through changing conditions.

 

[LongBomber]

I can usually tune a hunting rifle in under 20 rounds and get it shooting sub .3moa. Fine tune from there if needed. I recommend ladders to all of my customers, as its not only the most efficient, it will extract the most accuracy from a rifle. Do them at the longest distance you can. I like 600 for hunting rifles or 1000 for competition rifles.

That 30nos ladder test you posted pics of is one of the best examples of a ladder I have seen posted. The node is quite clear, very easy to interpret. My feeling is the further out you go the better ladder results will be. If you are shooting an accurate rifle 300 yards is not enough distance to give the vertical spread to the ladder. See the pic of this ladder done at 300 yards- all the shots are with 2.6" hor and 2" vert, makes it tough to get good readable results from.

 

[Shootin4fun]

I feel like I just landed on Mars. 300 yards? 400? 600? OMG, my head is going to explode! If you are developing a load, first you must eliminate environmental variables, mainly wind, as much as possible. That means 100 yards, 200 max! Look at the ballistics tables as how wind, even a 5mph breeze affects a bullet over 300+ yards, and consider that you don't have any idea of what's going on out there past 100 yards with respect to breezes. I respect all of the long time members here, but I really thought they were pulling your leg at first, then I realized people were being serious. LMAO, if you are trying to load for a .223, you won't ANY meaningful data at 600 yards.

I shoot from between 300 to 600 yards almost every weekend, and with serious people who shoot in long range competitions, and when people are starting out to develop a load everyone I know starts at 100. One guy I know has a shooting camp in Co. where he teaches shooting out to 1 mile, and I've even him starting at 100 yards with a new gun or load.

Personally, I start with a chrono and do ladder at 100, paying attention to the OCW method to some degree. Then once I have some stats and a decent load I go to 200. But the fun begins at 300, so I normally shoot at 300 - 600. Every weekend. .3 MOA is about as good as I can do, adn I can't do that consistently especially in Texas winds, but I know there are others here and at my range who can leave me in the dust.

Now, if you are doing long range ballistics drop and windage tests, that's another thing.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The best 1k Benchrest shooters I know all tune strictly at 1k yards. They are breaking world records, so I'd say you can get meaningful data. I did all my tuning at 1000 as well when I competed last. Why? Because it produces the smallest groups. You just have to know what your looking for.

 

[blinderthanascope]

The best 1k Benchrest shooters I know all tune strictly at 1k yards. They are breaking world records, so I'd say you can get meaningful data. I did all my tuning at 1000 as well when I competed last. Why? Because it produces the smallest groups. You just have to know what your looking for.

and he does mean World Records as in small small lol

 

[Shootin4fun]

Tuning for 1K is not the same as load development. Granted, after initial development at 100 yards, one must move farther out to see real world results. But again, wind is such a major influence that you can't control, the data for that distance is the data for that distance.

 

[rcoody]

I feel like I just landed on Mars. 300 yards? 400? 600? OMG, my head is going to explode! If you are developing a load, first you must eliminate environmental variables, mainly wind, as much as possible. That means 100 yards, 200 max! Look at the ballistics tables as how wind, even a 5mph breeze affects a bullet over 300+ yards, and consider that you don't have any idea of what's going on out there past 100 yards with respect to breezes. I respect all of the long time members here, but I really thought they were pulling your leg at first, then I realized people were being serious. LMAO, if you are trying to load for a .223, you won't ANY meaningful data at 600 yards.

I shoot from between 300 to 600 yards almost every weekend, and with serious people who shoot in long range competitions, and when people are starting out to develop a load everyone I know starts at 100. One guy I know has a shooting camp in Co. where he teaches shooting out to 1 mile, and I've even him starting at 100 yards with a new gun or load.

Personally, I start with a chrono and do ladder at 100, paying attention to the OCW method to some degree. Then once I have some stats and a decent load I go to 200. But the fun begins at 300, so I normally shoot at 300 - 600. Every weekend. .3 MOA is about as good as I can do, adn I can't do that consistently especially in Texas winds, but I know there are others here and at my range who can leave me in the dust.

you completely missed the point of a ladder

"Minimal Vertical Dispersion"
Now, if you are doing long range ballistics drop and windage tests, that's another thing.

 

[Shootin4fun]

The OP asked about a good distance for load development and described a process of shooting only 10 rounds at different load configs. People were saying anything other than 600 - 1K is a waste of time, meaningless. My point was originally about sample size and distance. Any error induced by the shooter can affect vertical or horizontal. Wind can too, depending on direction. Sample size must be increased; single shots are highly ambiguous. I haven't missed anything about vertical dispersion...I look for it in my 4 shot load tests, as well as the relative distance and position from POA as Newberry suggests.

Last weekend while testing 168 7mm Berger Classic Hunters with RE 22, 2 of 3 loads showed about than .1" vertical dispersion @ 100. Horizontal was .4 & .5 which I'm thinking was the strong coffee that morning and trigger technique variance as there was little / no wind. But that may not be the case, because another standard load I have with Classic Hunters & H1000 shot 3 of 4 in one slightly enlarged hole with the 4th .3" higher twice, an hour apart, same relative POI. I will rinse and repeat this weekend @ 200 & 300 to verify these assumptions/conclusions. Sample size.

In general, I have not seen things change due to a load configuration between 400 & 1000 yards. If it's shooting .5 MOA at 400, it's capable of that at 1000, so I don't see the value of doing load development at 1000 where it is more likely wind, sight picture and other human variations that cause group size changes. This is assuming high quality bullets of course. If someone can explain how that's not the case, I'm all ears.

 

[Shootin4fun]

All the methods work, whether Ladder, OCW or Satterlee's 10 round load development. Properly done they will all lead to the same place. I see no reason not to use the one you feel most confident in, then verify with another method if you wish. Having a chronograph helps with the first two and is mandatory using Satterlee's method.

One thing to watch for on the OCW: Locating a scatter node can be as beneficial as locating an accuracy node. According to Dan, and I have seen this with my rifles, nodes are typically about 3% apart. Therefore, if you locate a scatter node, multiply that charge by 1.015 and that should put you on an accuracy node. Dan recommends that the OCW be shot at 100 yds so wind is not usually a factor.

I am not as experienced as some of you at long range, but I have never had a load that shot well at short range that did not shoot well at long range.

My personal experience supports this. What always surprises me are the velocity plateaus and dips. For example in my 7RM, 60.6 of RL22 give the same velocity as 62.1, but 6.1. and 6.1.6 give higher.