Known Loads too hot now..why

The only thing I'll do is clean my gun, everything else will be identical. I'll chrono them and report results.

Yes, by all means post back here again tomorrow and let us know how it goes with dry cases and chambers.

I may try to shoot tomorrow also, at 1000 yds if the wind is dead-still in the AM, and the ground is solid enough to drive down the powerline right-of-way. But I won't be placing soapy water on my cases. I'll be checking 990 yd POIs and 990 yd velocities.
 
Last edited:
Phorwoth, very thorough indeed! Tomorrow I'll be at the range to try my loads so we can put this to rest. The only thing I'll do is clean my gun, everything else will be identical. I'll chrono them and report results. Thanks for all the work you put into it.


All all of your reloading components of the same lot as before or has some of them from different lots?
 
Man, there is some good stuff coming out now! I love reading engineers explanations, most of it makes sense till the heavy math comes out. Way better than my way of explaining things!!

One question came to mind though, if your fire forming a cartridge like and AI would you get better results if you slightly lube the case so that your moving all the brass in forward motion.

Very interesting stuff!! Thanks Phorwath!!
 
POLISHED AND LUBRICATED.... This level of friction would represent what one would expect with a
polished chamber and a lightly oiled brass for Fire Forming. But one would not necessarily use a full
55,000 psi load for fire forming. Note that in the cases with Coefficient of Friction of from 0.01 to 0.10 the
brass head contacts the bolt face at about 150 microseconds. The primer contacts the bolt face at about 50
microseconds. There was no firing pin or firing pin forces in the calculations.

From the Varmint Al's article.
 
I've been wondering the same thing. If I understand everything I read it looks like it could, it looks like it might help when you buy that new brass that is on the short end of SAAMI specs for headspace and do the initial fireform for your chamber that is on the opposite end of the spectrum. I wouldn't do it with anywhere near max load though.
 
They are referring to making AI brass and the like. Brass designed for your chamber
fire forms just fine the first time you shoot it, no extra steps need be taken.
 
What I was thinking was minimizing the case stretch at the web of the case more specifically with a chamber that might be be on the long side of SAAMI headspace dimensions. An example might be I just bought some 6.5X55 brass that shows it is .007 shorter in headspace dimension then what a fired case comes out of my rifle. I know that it will shoot fine but according to Varmint Als article most of the case stretch will take place at the web if fired in a dry chamber (we all pretty much know what happens if you bump the shoulder back to far to many times), if I fired a lubricated case then it should move brass from the forward part of the case body which I know to be a better location for it to come from.
 
One question came to mind though, if your fire forming a cartridge like an AI would you get better results if you slightly lube the case so that your moving all the brass in forward motion.

If the parent case that is about to be AI-improved by fireforming in the rifle chamber is headspaced properly (and they are supposed to be pretty close, by definition of an AI cartridge), then adding a light lubricant coating to the casing could only help, but likely wouldn't be of great benefit.

The benefit would be proportional to the excess headspace present at the time of fireforming. Using a somewhat reduced pressure load might also reduce potential for case web stretch, however the pressure needs to be high enough to form the case to the chamber or the fireforming effort was nothing more than wasted time.

I typically Flitz polish my chambers in the effort to enable easier case extraction. It doesn't take very long at all, and it serves to reduce the friction coefficient of the chamber walls. I find a bronze brush for a .45 caliber or there-abouts, and wrap a layer or two of a piece of rag around the brush which will cause firm contact between the rag and the chamber. Screw a section of cleaning rod on to the bronze brush. Then chuck the other end of the cleaning rod into a battery operated variable speed drill. Coat the rag with some Flitz and work the Flitz coated rag in and out of the chamber while power turning with the drill. Flitz is safe (impossible to damage the chamber surface) and will buff the chamber walls to a finer, friction reducing finish. Clean up the chamber and bore when done and add a light coating of corrosion protecting oil to the chamber. Go shoot rifle with a nicely polished chamber, which is moving the friction coefficient lower. I don't Flitz polish to reduce case web stretch and separations. I polish so that if I push pressures higher than I should have, the fired case will be just a smidge easier to extract from the chamber.

I don't expect to be able to fire cases with excessive headspace sloppiness and get away with it by adding some lubricant to the case/chamber interface though.

The case head separation and case web stretch with the case in my photos largely occurred during my fireforming process. I used Lapua 30-06 casings to create 280 RCBS Imp cases. I ran the -06 cases into my 280 RCBS full length sizer to neck down to accept the .284 bullets. The 30-06 brass would not correctly headspace in my chamber. So I seated a 175 grain .284 caliber bullet in the cases and left them seated long - jammed into the rilfing. I was depending on the bullet jam to hold headspace properly during the fire-forming. Well a couple of the cases pushed forward in the chamber when the firing pin struck the primer - setting the case head forward and away from the bolt face. Then as case pressures rose, the case sidewalls grabbed the chamber walls, and finally the case head was driven back into the bolt face. At that time, the case web stretched and began the process of a case head separation. I knew I had a few of these in my batch of fireformed cases so I was using them while developing and identifying maximum charge loads for this rifle. They lasted several more firings with the proper headspacing. The one that separated would have been good for another shot or two if I hadn't screwed up and shoved the shoulder back the extra 0.008".

ANYHOW, I will lightly lube the case exteriors whenever fire-forming brass in the future. It can't possibly hurt. It could only be of some benefit. Measureable benefit? Maybe - maybe not. As I type this now, I'm wishing I had been lubing cases while fireforming brass for my .280 RCBS Improved. lightbulb

Lubing takes so little time and expense. So what's to lose? That's why I'll lube during any future fireforming. BUT the most important step in the process is to use a method that ensures firm headspacing contact for the non-belted cartridge prior to fire-forming. Lubing is no substitute for maintaining firm headspace contact during fireforming operations.
 
Last edited:
Seating the bullet out to provide firm contact is how I first did it when I started working with a 30 Gibbs I later decided it was smarter to buy 35 Whelen brass and setup a false shoulder which resulted in much better results. The only case head separation I've ever had resulted from that initial learning process though.
 
Seating the bullet out to provide firm contact is how I first did it when I started working with a 30 Gibbs I later decided it was smarter to buy 35 Whelen brass and setup a false shoulder which resulted in much better results. The only case head separation I've ever had resulted from that initial learning process though.

I was intent on ending up with Lapua brass, which is why I went through the extra steps and headaches. Otherwise I could have just purchased 280 Rem brass, which would have already been properly headspaced, and it would have been MUCH simpler. Anyhow, that's the explanation for going about it the difficult way.
 
I know my dad seats the bullets for fire forming loads long so as to keep the case in proper position and that is what I've always done. But I have a 270 WSM that had like 9 thou of head space and I was stretching the heck out of it the first firing and I'm thinking that with a lubed case and reduced load I would have moved brass from the length of the case as apposed to thinning the web, Norma cases thinned .008 in one firing and were junk at 3. Win brass was thinned out .010 at 8 and Rem brass was thinned .002 after 20. So is the difference in what the cases will take maybe have to do with how well they conform and grip the chamber wall, the Norma is obviously softer and I would think have greater tension on the chamber wall than the others thus failing faster at the web.
Since this was a Savage I re set my head space of a gauge and am in the process of getting a new batch of brass ready. In the brass I have already fired I went from .010 of brass movement to only .002 in new cases, which corresponds to my head spacing.
 
Re-do the test with plain water, no soap..

I used soap for a worst case water mixture. Plus it wouldn't bead up like water on waxed autos, so it was easy to coat the casing. Plain water should result in more friction than soapy water, and less case head thrust. But I'm satisfied with my single test, analysis, and research.

Anyone could try this. No chronograph required. Internal case pressures are not increased in my opinion. Case head thrust is increased with less case-wall/chamber friction; again - in my opinion. Which could present with case head indentations and stiff bolt lift if handloaded ammo is being red-lined near the point of case head/brass flow with dry cases/chamber.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 14 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Recent Posts

Top