KIMBER MT. ASCENT GOES NUTS

[Tulsa Reiner]

I use a "T" allen wrench to torque all of my action screws. It twists and stops rotating when the torque is just right.
Being an engine builder, I can tell you that if you are NOT lubricating your screws, your torque readings will be off by as much as 30% and the possibility of breaking one goes up EVERY time they are torqued DRY.
I recommend using nickel anti-seize on ALL threads when torque is critical.
One easy way to know if your torque is on the money is if the screw/bolt 'cracks' when you loosen them.

Cheers.

Is "nickel anti-seize" a brand, or a type of anti-seize?

 

[cohunt]

I use a "T" allen wrench to torque all of my action screws. It twists and stops rotating when the torque is just right.
Being an engine builder, I can tell you that if you are NOT lubricating your screws, your torque readings will be off by as much as 30% and the possibility of breaking one goes up EVERY time they are torqued DRY.
I recommend using nickel anti-seize on ALL threads when torque is critical.
One easy way to know if your torque is on the money is if the screw/bolt 'cracks' when you loosen them.

Cheers.

As an engine builder you would know there are actually multiple torque settings for each bolt.
Dry, graphite, white grease, 30 wt, 40wt, anti seize etc...the bolt finish even affects the torque setting (ex, galvanized bolts require different torque)

The problem I see is that I have never seen a gun manufacture spec out what type of or lack of lube on the bolts, just a spec (if you are lucky)

If the torque spec is 65 in lbs dry, and you use 40wt oil to torque it to 65 in pounds, you may break the bolt.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Is "nickel anti-seize" a brand, or a type of anti-seize?

Nickel anti-sieze is a type of thread lubricant made by Loctite.
They manufacture a few different types.

Cheers.

 

[MagnumManiac]

As an engine builder you would know there are actually multiple torque settings for each bolt.
Dry, graphite, white grease, 30 wt, 40wt, anti seize etc...the bolt finish even affects the torque setting (ex, galvanized bolts require different torque)

The problem I see is that I have never seen a gun manufacture spec out what type of or lack of lube on the bolts, just a spec (if you are lucky)

If the torque spec is 65 in lbs dry, and you use 40wt oil to torque it to 65 in pounds, you may break the bolt.

Yes I do know all of this, just as a different torque rate is used for different tensile strength bolts. Aluminium also requires different torque rates.
A 1/4"-28 bolt is not going to break being torqued to 65inch/lbs with 40wt oil, it's more likely to break when you attempt to loosen it, hence the advice to use anti-sieze on your action screws. It also depends on WHERE you place the lube/oil..........does it not?
I don't know about you, but every gun I have bought has had some type of gooo on the action screws.

Cheers.

 

[cohunt]

Yes I do know all of this, just as a different torque rate is used for different tensile strength bolts. Aluminium also requires different torque rates.
A 1/4"-28 bolt is not going to break being torqued to 65inch/lbs with 40wt oil, it's more likely to break when you attempt to loosen it, hence the advice to use anti-sieze on your action screws. It also depends on WHERE you place the lube/oil..........does it not?
I don't know about you, but every gun I have bought has had some type of gooo on the action screws.

Cheers.

I'm not implying that you are wrong in any way, just saying you need to expand on the details when you recommend using anti seize on a bolt --I agree that 65 in pounds lubed will most likely not break the 1/4x28 bolt (unless it is a grade 2 then maybe get close)
but it depends on the heat treat and material on that 1/4x28 bolt and the type of lube used (which is what you are saying also, just not really expanding or explaining)

graphite reduces the required dry torque spec by 50-55%, white grease or 30wt oil reduces it by 35-45, and 40 wt oil reduces it by 30-40%, anti seize reduces the wet torque spec by 25% (not dry torque like the other lubes, but wet torque)--- this acts in reverse if you add lube to a bolt and then torque to the dry spec it increases the amount of torque and clamping force you have added to the bolt

per the bolt manu's a recommended installation torque on a grade 2 bolt is about 56 in pounds lubed or 76 dry
grade 5 is 86 lubed/ 120 dry
grade 8 is 120 lubed or 168 dry
18-8SS is 77 dry/58 wet and 316ss is 120 dry/84 wet
these numbers are just prior to plastic deformation

yield strength (break point) is rated in clamping force, grade 2 is 2900 lbs, grade 5 is 4840, grade 8 is 7200, 18-8 is 3020 and 316 is 5000

what grade are the 1/4x28 action bolts? are they supposed to be torqued dry or lubed? I'm just not sure you can get all this technical data from the manufacture

BUT, the extra torque on the bolt does increase the clamping force on your receiver to stock which could distort your receiver if it is not 100% stress free bedded

5 in pounds is about equal to 100 pounds of clamping force, so 30 in pounds on the action screws would equate to about 600 pounds of clamping force, and 65 in pounds would equal 1300 pounds of force--it only takes about 4-5 inch pounds to start distorting your action if it is not stress free bedded.

as far as "goo" on the action screws, I often see some sort of thread locker rather than lube or oil on factory stuff these days


as far as anti seize goes, you are supposed to reduce the applied torque by 25% over what the "wet torque" values are (from anti seize manufactures specs) to equal the same clamping force.


wow, that ended up being a long winded post of a bunch of technical data numbers that might not mean much to some people--sorry

 

[Stumppuller]

Wet and dry torque spec's--now it's really getting confusing. I suspect factory specs are w/o lubed threads. Any thoughts along those lines.

My initial post and all the great ideas that came flowing down the Internet were invaluable.

I reset the magazine box, which is a bit critical on the Kimber, screwed everything back together at 55 inch-lbs and then discovered that the factory muzzle brake had rotated 180-degrees. THAT I think was the problem. And I feel humbled that I did not check that the first thing.

Loc-Tighted it.

Returned to the range with handloads of Hornady 150 gr. ELD's and H4831 and IMR 7977. Max loads produced sub-MOA groups.

Back in business.

I think we need to really get into a discussion of TORQUE.

 

[Frog4aday]

Glad to hear you found and sorted out the problem. Appreciate the post letting us know. Loose muzzle-brake. One more thing to file away in the "Reasons gun stops shooting well" file.