Just Conversation about Rifle Accuracy

[Broz]

Back to the original subject. If a guy works up his load at 100 yards with his factory rifle, it is shooting 1/2 moa, has es/sd under about 15/10, and it is holding that 1/2 moa (roughly 1 inch) at 200 yards, and you have a good bullet for long range work, Exactly what is it about a custom rifle that will make that bullet fly "truer" than it would from a factory rifle? the bullet does not care how much that rifle costs, or what brand of glass you are using. True, the optics will make it easier to make that long shot, not arguing that. I just caught that part of the first post and with that I disagree. The originator of this thread stated that the difference in the rifle would show up past xx range. In my opinion, quite possibly fact, past said range the rifle no longer has any bearing. If the rifle would do a sufficient job at 100 yards, beyond that it comes down to the bullet so long as it had enough twist to keep it stable. Again, if you want to know before you write the check that the gun will shoot well enough to be accurate at a given range, then custom is the only way to get a guarantee, but if a factory rifle will do it then it will do it at 100 yards or 1000, provided the shooter can do his part. I guess the bottom line point here is, no rifle has ever made a guy a good shot. It will HELP a good shooter to shoot better in many cases, but it does nothing to improve his ability to hit the target/animal at a given range beyond the MPBR. That is all on the shooter. I am speaking of things such as judging wind and drop.

cfvickers, This post was to generate discussion about accuracy and how we discribe it. And I am surprised at all the posts, some good poits have come up.

With that I want to explain why I feel this way about factory / customs. First lets reread what I stated.

"But what bothers me more is why we here on LRH talk about a 100 yard group at all. I have seen some factory rifles shoot 1/2 inch at 100, but with the loads, bullets and other criteria that are required to shoot to 1000 they are more times than not 1 moa at best and most times a larger.

There are things about a factory rifle that may not show up until 800 or 1000. But yet a good custom will consistantly shoot 5" groups at 1000. Maybe it would be best when saying " it will shoot 1/2 moa" to add to what distances it has done this on a regular basis. ??"

Lets look at the first part of this quote. (blue) By this I am refering to a factory rifle that "shoots 1/2 moa" at 100. Many times with factory loads. But these loads are with flat base , low BC or other bullets that will not do as well at long distances. So then I go to shoot with these guys even though they have indeed shot a 1/2" group at 100, they are 15" or more at 1000. Many of these rifles will reject a LR bullet for a number of reasons. Some of which are mag box length, throat length etc.

Now for the second part of my statement.(red) The " things" I am refering to are things like, stock fit, cheek weld to reduce the affects of paralax, trigger pull and a clean consistant break of the trigger etc. Although they are all still there at 100 yard shooting, they are indeed amplified as the distances get longer.
When you go past 1000 yrds all of this really starts to snowball.

This is simply what I have seen, and like I said there are exceptions to everything. But for these reasons I do believe my customs make me a better shot.

Hope that defines it for you a little better. You sure do not have to agree but this is just something I wanted to discuss and food for thought. This is why I suggest that if we are going to call it a 1/4 or 1/2 or even 3/4 moa rifle, lets add the distances we typically shoot to come up with this discription. This is RLH forum after all.

Jeff

 

[cfvickers]

Jeff, I appreciate the thoughtful response and it made a lot of sense. I do understand all of your points and cannot disagree with any of them. It makes me consider a few things that are selling points for a rifle to me. And a lot of things that are deal breakers for me. If I am going to buy a rifle I research every aspect of it prior to even going to a shop. Most that I have bought new were ordered because I am very specific about certain things, and most of those things are listed in what makes a custom better to you. I always first check the length of the magazine, if it is short for the cartridge (like a browning a-bolt 300 win mag) and will not allow me to adjust the OAL well beyond saami, I won't buy it, in fact it is junk in my own opinion. I try to find out the throat length, rate of twist, barrel length, if it has an adjustable trigger and how much adjustment it has. Then I go to a shop and pick one up and hold it. If I have to make anything other than a slight adjustment of my head to get a good cheek weld I will look elsewhere. So I guess I understand your point completely. And after reading your post I guess I am so particular about the characteristics of a rifle that by the time I pick one out I know it is just almost a custom, or at least for my own purposes. On bullets, I have one rifle that I worked up a load using just flat based bullets because it like them better. It is not a long range rifle though. It is a Steyr SBS Mountain in 6.5x55 that I see as a 300 yard maximum gun. It has a 20 inch barrel so I cannot get the velocity where it needs to be to shoot long range even if I wanted to. It shoots well with 129 SST bullets but I am only pushing them at about 2600 fps. I can make it shoot far better with regular old interlock FB bullets pushed to 2800 fps and I don't hunt fields or shoot long distance with it anyway. Between my ex-wife and I we have killed 23 deer with that gun at ranges out to 275 yards with no holdover or other adjustment so it does it's job. With the magazine length in it though I can just reach the lands with a 129SST, but the loaded round sure looks funny!

On groups, I agree that we should state "this is what it will CONSISTENTLY do at this range". I have tested enough loads to know that often times the stars only line up long enough to give you one 3 or 5 shot group worth noting.

Thanks for expanding on your reasoning, it was thought provoking and made me realize that even though I have factory rifles, many of the aspects that made me choose those particular rifles are the same as what makes many just go with a custom. I guess it helps me that I really couldn't care less what it looks like, so long as it has the "features" that I require and feels good to boot. I have sold a lot of factory rifles that I have owned though, because they would not shoot like I wanted them too. I don't worry about the trigger a great deal, if I can adjust the issues out, I keep it factory, but that is easy to change and relatively inexpensive.

 

[Greyfox]

cfvickers, This post was to generate discussion about accuracy and how we discribe it. And I am surprised at all the posts, some good poits have come up.

With that I want to explain why I feel this way about factory / customs. First lets reread what I stated.

"But what bothers me more is why we here on LRH talk about a 100 yard group at all. I have seen some factory rifles shoot 1/2 inch at 100, but with the loads, bullets and other criteria that are required to shoot to 1000 they are more times than not 1 moa at best and most times a larger.

There are things about a factory rifle that may not show up until 800 or 1000. But yet a good custom will consistantly shoot 5" groups at 1000. Maybe it would be best when saying " it will shoot 1/2 moa" to add to what distances it has done this on a regular basis. ??"

Lets look at the first part of this quote. (blue) By this I am refering to a factory rifle that "shoots 1/2 moa" at 100. Many times with factory loads. But these loads are with flat base , low BC or other bullets that will not do as well at long distances. So then I go to shoot with these guys even though they have indeed shot a 1/2" group at 100, they are 15" or more at 1000. Many of these rifles will reject a LR bullet for a number of reasons. Some of which are mag box length, throat length etc.

Now for the second part of my statement.(red) The " things" I am refering to are things like, stock fit, cheek weld to reduce the affects of paralax, trigger pull and a clean consistant break of the trigger etc. Although they are all still there at 100 yard shooting, they are indeed amplified as the distances get longer.
When you go past 1000 yrds all of this really starts to snowball.

This is simply what I have seen, and like I said there are exceptions to everything. But for these reasons I do believe my customs make me a better shot.

Hope that defines it for you a little better. You sure do not have to agree but this is just something I wanted to discuss and food for thought. This is why I suggest that if we are going to call it a 1/4 or 1/2 or even 3/4 moa rifle, lets add the distances we typically shoot to come up with this discription. This is RLH forum after all.

Jeff

Your clarification paints a different picture than your original post. I the original, your comments led one to think that the cutom rifle itself produced better performance at long range than a custom, given they both produced good groups at short range. Variables such as bullet choice, stock design, trigger, etc. can poduce the same long range performance effects similiarly whether the rifle is a custom or factory. I struggled with your first post, the second makes a lot more sense with the clarifiying remarks. Thanks

 

[rscott5028]

Baselines and reference points are important for measuring relative performance and improvement.

100yds is the most common range available. Many Internet polls indicate that many factory rifles shoot .5 MOA or better. Yet, I rarely see even MOA performance at 100yd public ranges. ...I suppose everyone's doing load development?

While hunting requires cold bore predictability, I like a rifle that groups and holds POI from day to day so that I can measure my own performance/progress and have confidence that misses are due to me and not the rifle.

As such, I find it humorous when people report their rifle's accuracy and qualify as, "when I do my part." I'm still searching for a rifle that remains accurate even, "when I don't do my part."

-- richard

 

[Greyfox]

Your clarification paints a different picture than your original post. In the original, your comments led one to think that the custom rifle itself produced better performance at long range than a factory rifle given they both produced good groups at short range. Variables such as bullet choice, stock design, trigger, etc. can produce the same long range performance effects similiarly whether the rifle is a custom or factory. I struggled with your first post, the second makes a lot more sense with the clarifiying remarks. Thanks

Sorry, my work key board was giving me trouble ...see corrections above

 

[bigngreen]

I used to qualify my rifles accuracy by shooting it in the best possible way I could then counting it, best load possible and from the bench locked down as much as I could and at 100yards maybe 200 if I felt good about it.
Now that I'm building my own rifles I'm looking for more, range wise I'm interested in groups over the effective range of the rifle and from the position I'm going to shoot from, so of the bipod with a rear bag in the dirt after all it's a LR hunting rifle not a BR rig.
I do give it the best chance possible conditions wise and I don't count where they land from the point of aim just what a 5 shot group will do, I feel the POI for the group is more what MOA I can read conditions and not what the rifle is capable of.
I'm also looking for multiple loads and groups to do well, not just that one special load at one special range on the perfect day.
So my 270 WSM right now is a 3/4 MOA rifle with a 1.5 MOA shooter at 1030 yards and under, even though it's done under 1/2 MOA and I've done much better, I feel that is reality and it can be improved!

 

[cfvickers]

100yds is the most common range available. Many Internet polls indicate that many factory rifles shoot .5 MOA or better. Yet, I rarely see even MOA performance at 100yd public ranges. ...I suppose everyone's doing load development?

As such, I find it humorous when people report their rifle's accuracy and qualify as, "when I do my part." I'm still searching for a rifle that remains accurate even, "when I don't do my part."

-- richard

I will take the second part first. Personally I say "When I do my part" mostly when talking about 200 yard groups. In saying that I mean ANY TIME I do my part. It is simply an acknowledgement that I am fallible and that every single group I shoot may not be great. If I pull one shot off then the group is ruined. It is not necessarily a qualifying statement it is just acknowledging that one is subject to error from time to time. That said, if one has fired one 1/2" group in his life, and never since, then either the group was an anomaly or his shooting needs improvement. I believe all of us are subject to error. I find it humorous for one to claim that he does not err when shooting. Practice makes these errors less common.

On the second statement, the vast majority of people generally shoot factory ammo, they are not the guys on this site or other reloading sites and the time most people spend reading about shooting is not about how to shoot better but what the newest and best rifle is. Many of the claims you hear are people just repeating what they read in some gun rag. One guy says in it his model 700 will shoot half inch groups consistently so because they have a model 700 they say their gun will shoot half inch groups. You must consider the source and also the people you are seeing shooting at your local range. Personally I have never fired the first shot from a rifle at a public range. I shoot at a friends farm and previously I had a 200 yard range in my back yard. You must realize that for most people a 1 inch group is a great group and I believe the shooters on LRH are far above average when it comes to skill. I know I am an above average shot, but I believe I am well below average on this particular website. And considering your statement that you find it humorous to hear these things, how do any of us know that you have ever fired a shot from a rifle and aren't just blowing smoke you read in a gun rag. I am not saying this is the case, just that we have no way knowing who is lying and who is telling the truth. So I will put up a couple of pictures of my 111 LRH and the very first 3 shot 100 yard group fired with it. and then a 1.25" group that I am even more proud of and that speaks volumes about the accuracy of the rifle. The first is exactly a 1/2 inch group to the best of my measurement, the pink lines are 1/4 inc apart. The second group has no reference other than the bullet holes, but it measured 1.25 inches, was 10 shots, same rifle with 5 or 6 different loads, three bullet weights and a total of 400FPS spread in velocity. I had a few loaded rounds left over from various things I had tried and decided to shoot them rather than pull them. there were also 4 different powders. the only alteration to this rifle is adjusting the trigger. Range was 110 yards.

 

[rscott5028]

I will take the second part first. Personally I say "When I do my part" mostly when talking about 200 yard groups. In saying that I mean ANY TIME I do my part. It is simply an acknowledgement that I am fallible and that every single group I shoot may not be great. If I pull one shot off then the group is ruined. It is not necessarily a qualifying statement it is just acknowledging that one is subject to error from time to time. That said, if one has fired one 1/2" group in his life, and never since, then either the group was an anomaly or his shooting needs improvement. I believe all of us are subject to error. I find it humorous for one to claim that he does not err when shooting. Practice makes these errors less common.

On the second statement, the vast majority of people generally shoot factory ammo, they are not the guys on this site or other reloading sites and the time most people spend reading about shooting is not about how to shoot better but what the newest and best rifle is. Many of the claims you hear are people just repeating what they read in some gun rag. One guy says in it his model 700 will shoot half inch groups consistently so because they have a model 700 they say their gun will shoot half inch groups. You must consider the source and also the people you are seeing shooting at your local range. Personally I have never fired the first shot from a rifle at a public range. I shoot at a friends farm and previously I had a 200 yard range in my back yard. You must realize that for most people a 1 inch group is a great group and I believe the shooters on LRH are far above average when it comes to skill. I know I am an above average shot, but I believe I am well below average on this particular website. And considering your statement that you find it humorous to hear these things, how do any of us know that you have ever fired a shot from a rifle and aren't just blowing smoke you read in a gun rag. I am not saying this is the case, just that we have no way knowing who is lying and who is telling the truth. So I will put up a couple of pictures of my 111 LRH and the very first 3 shot 100 yard group fired with it. and then a 1.25" group that I am even more proud of and that speaks volumes about the accuracy of the rifle. The first is exactly a 1/2 inch group to the best of my measurement, the pink lines are 1/4 inc apart. The second group has no reference other than the bullet holes, but it measured 1.25 inches, was 10 shots, same rifle with 5 or 6 different loads, three bullet weights and a total of 400FPS spread in velocity. I had a few loaded rounds left over from various things I had tried and decided to shoot them rather than pull them. there were also 4 different powders. the only alteration to this rifle is adjusting the trigger. Range was 110 yards.

I'm sorry if you were offended. Internet postings don't always come across as intended.

The bottom line is that you don't know me nor vice versa. We can quote gun rags or post pictures of 25 yd groups and say they were shot at 1k. But unless you shoot with me, you don't know for sure.

In the end, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof to be believable.

I see a lot of exceptional/credible claims online and a lot that just don't add up.

Meanwhile, I will assume that you are "doing your part" if you are reporting excellent groups. It would also be nice if one could assume that the accuracy reported by everyone was believable/consistent/repeatable/meaningful. Unfortunately, that's often not the case.

-- richard

 

[cfvickers]

I'm sorry if you were offended. Internet postings don't always come across as intended.

The bottom line is that you don't know me nor vice versa. We can quote gun rags or post pictures of 25 yd groups and say they were shot at 1k. But unless you shoot with me, you don't know for sure.

In the end, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof to be believable.

I see a lot of exceptional/credible claims online and a lot that just don't add up.

Meanwhile, I will assume that you are "doing your part" if you are reporting excellent groups. It would also be nice if one could assume that the accuracy reported by everyone was believable/consistent/repeatable/meaningful. Unfortunately, that's often not the case.

-- richard

I was not in the least offended by your post. It did however seem rather condescending to any of us that stated we had a consistent half MOA factory rifle. Personally I don't see any reason to lie, I have nothing to prove and would gain nothing from it, I am sure you feel the same. My only goal in that post was to try to put things into some prospective and say that I believe we should give eachother the benefit of the doubt in most cases. There are some where you pick up immediately that they have no idea what they are saying and their posts will reveal it. My point with the pictures was simply to show that there really are factory rifles that will shoot extremely well, and personally I really don't care if someone thinks they are 25 yard or 50 yard or whatever range groups. All I can do is tell you the range and if you don't believe me, oh well. If you make a claim you saw a UFO hovering over your house with a green man staring out the window, It is far fetched, and I might ask for you to corroborate your story or show a picture, but I would not immediatly think you were a liar.

 

[rscott5028]

I was not in the least offended by your post. It did however seem rather condescending to any of us that stated we had a consistent half MOA factory rifle. Personally I don't see any reason to lie, I have nothing to prove and would gain nothing from it, I am sure you feel the same. My only goal in that post was to try to put things into some prospective and say that I believe we should give eachother the benefit of the doubt in most cases. There are some where you pick up immediately that they have no idea what they are saying and their posts will reveal it. My point with the pictures was simply to show that there really are factory rifles that will shoot extremely well, and personally I really don't care if someone thinks they are 25 yard or 50 yard or whatever range groups. All I can do is tell you the range and if you don't believe me, oh well. If you make a claim you saw a UFO hovering over your house with a green man staring out the window, It is far fetched, and I might ask for you to corroborate your story or show a picture, but I would not immediatly think you were a liar.

I don't have a problem believing that this or that individual factory rifle is 1/2 MOA (or better) under the right conditions.

I do have difficulty taking a few individual experiences and setting the expectation that nearly every new rifle of that model will be a one hole wonder.

I also don't think everyone's a liar. I do think people use terms like 1/2 MOA or tack driver very loosely. ....which is what the OP was really all about.

Sorry. I should've been more clear.

thanks,
richard

 

[Broz]

I do think people use terms like 1/2 MOA or tack driver very loosely. ....which is what the OP was really all about.
thanks,
richard

That is it! I don't feel it is really intentional. But more of a caught up in the moment thing as they are happy about a group, or two. More time at the range and longer distance will show the proof when all groups over a perid of time are averaged. That is if the 2 moa'ers don't go in the trash.

Jeff

 

[AJ Peacock]

Here is a group I shot with my 338 Allen Mag in high mirage conditions with a variable wind.

The interesting thing about this group is that is was a single shot at each of the following distances (one shot only).

400, 600, 800, 1000, 1214, 1320, 1483

This was my first attempt at using an estimated drop chart (exbal based).

Basically, 7 cold bore shots at different distances. Now that I've adjusted my drop chart, with better shooting conditions, I believe I could do MUCH better with the 338AM. The 1214,1320 and 1483yd shots were basically a hope and a prayer, since I couldn't see the white cross at all through the mirage. The MOA rating I'd give this target are a LOT worse than I'd give the rifle.

AJ

 

[Broz]

The interesting thing about this group is that is was a single shot at each of the following distances (one shot only).

400, 600, 800, 1000, 1214, 1320, 1483

This was my first attempt at using an estimated drop chart (exbal based).

AJ

I remember this post from before. You my friend are on the same page as me. Good job!!!!!!!!!!! There is NO substtute for proven drops and accuracy. Not to mention the practise and confidence that comes with it. I would love to shoot with you one day. If you are ever in Montana bring your rig and some Boolitz. I have a good herd of killer rocks in my back yard.

Jeff gun)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[cfvickers]

I also don't think everyone's a liar. I do think people use terms like 1/2 MOA or tack driver very loosely. ....
richard

I agree completely. I have a friend that has a very good shooting Tikka T3. It will average 3/4 inch groups with his preferred load. I load his ammo with what he told me too and although the velocity he believes he is getting is fairly optimistic (I have fired them across a chronograph with his rifle) it is a decent load. But when I ask him what kind of groups he is getting he tells me either "drives tacks" or 1/2 inch. I have only fired about 10 or 15 rounds through the gun but I have not seen a 1/2 inch group with that load yet. It will shoot around 3/4 consistently in the few groups I fired with it. I don't think he is a good enough shot to shoot 1/2'' groups at 100 based on what I have seen. He usually has me shoot for groups with his rifles when I am there. So I see your point. I also agree that not every rifle of a given make/model will shoot the same. That is one statement that has been proven time and again.