Is the 6.5 Creedmoor too "light" for 1,000+ yard hunting?

[Tesoro]

My post wasnt so much about whether the creed is a 1000 yd cartridge as much as if you shoot at game at 1000+ you need to be really good and 90%+ of the hunters I speak to or watch shooting at the range have no business trying to hunt at that distance. And it seems to be getting worse every year. Maybe the one that takes it in the guts and disappears could have been your or my trophy the next day!
You can only kill a deer so dead and we all know a long skinny lighter bullet going slower will penetrate surprisingly well compared to a short fat heavier one going faster. You dont need a magnum to shoot deer long range and esp if you like to see your hits, which I consider important. At long range wind is your enemy and its the one thing you can only guess at to adjust your aim. I just dont feel like most hunters have the experience to read the wind well enough and a magnum or not wont make up for that. If it were that easy it wouldnt take so long for the military to train snipers.

With elk thats a diff story and agree for more power but only if you feel confident you can kill one at 1000 and have proven to yourself you can by dusting coyotes repetitively at the same range. Shooting gongs when you know where they are and a what range dosent cut it. Gongs dont have legs and run around!

 

[Bravo 4]

I can agree to most of what you said.
I have killed elk and deer past 1000, I also just last season passed on elk at under that due to exactly what you wrote. They were moving through trees and I just didn't feel comfortable trying to make that shot.

Shooting is only one aspect of training Snipers...

 

[Greyfox]

Owning several variations of the 6.5 used for casual shooting, competition, and hunting it is easy to understand the temptation to use the smaller cased variants(6.5 CM, 260, 6.5x47L) for a long range hunting rifle. With the growing popularity of long range shooting, many discover they can easily hit small steel targets at their local 1000 yard range with their off the shelf LR rig. I have run into several shooters(many that have never hunted) that get bored shooting steel, and decide to take their rifle hunting. I generally have one of my 6.5x284's or a 300WM(hunting loads) with me when I visit the range. On several occasions I have let these same shooters take a few shots with my rifle at the same steel targets. They very quickly convinced of the difference in ballistics/energy, desired for an effective 1000 yard hunter. IMO, if an experienced hunter/shooter uses loads at the high end of the velocity range and the "right" bullet, they can kill game at 1000 yards with good shot placement...But...IMO, the 6.5 Creedmoor(and variants) that run velocities in the 2700-2800FPS range are effective on medium game to around 700 yards or less.

 

[Tesoro]

Greyfox, cant debate with what you say. A 140gr 6.5 pushed at 3000 is ideal for that range.

 

[yobuck]

Owning several variations of the 6.5 used for casual shooting, competition, and hunting it is easy to understand the temptation to use the smaller cased variants(6.5 CM, 260, 6.5x47L) for a long range hunting rifle. With the growing popularity of long range shooting, many discover they can easily hit small steel targets at their local 1000 yard range with their off the shelf LR rig. I have run into several shooters(many that have never hunted) that get bored shooting steel, and decide to take their rifle hunting. I generally have one of my 6.5x284's or a 300WM(hunting loads) with me when I visit the range. On several occasions I have let these same shooters take a few shots with my rifle at the same steel targets. They very quickly convinced of the difference in ballistics/energy, desired for an effective 1000 yard hunter. IMO, if an experienced hunter/shooter uses loads at the high end of the velocity range and the "right" bullet, they can kill game at 1000 yards with good shot placement...But...IMO, the 6.5 Creedmoor(and variants) that run velocities in the 2700-2800FPS range are effective on medium game to around 700 yards or less.

Spot on correct. Which is why their use in places where over there is 600, but over there is 900 or even more from the same location, dosen't happen,
at least among people with some experience.
The argument about shot placement being critical is
true with all of them, but it's also a weak argument
for the use of less capable cartridges for hunting.
Besides, real world hunting is not exactly the same as we pick the day and location target shooting.

 

[Timnterra]

I think this has become more of a question of hunter ethics rather than cartridge capabilities. If you know what you are doing these cartridges are perfectly capable, even more so than many traditionally accepted big game cartridges. For example the 6.5 creedmoor with a 140 starting at 2800 will arrive at 1000 yds with more velocity, more energy and less wind drift than a 300 Win mag with a 165gr Barnes tsxbt starting at 3200fps. No one ever doubts the capability of the mighty 300 Win mag, but with a poor bullet choice it is inferior to a much smaller cartridge like the 6.5 creedmoor. If you want To talk about ethics that's fine, but just because a cartridge has higher case capacity and larger diameter projectile does not make it superior. Obviously, it should be assumed that one planning to hunt at 1,000yds would choose the best bullet for the job, but that is not always the case. In every thread dealing with terminal ballistics there are always guys shouting "exit hole for blood trail!" "My Barnes bullet retained 90% of its weight and your Berger blew up therefore mine is superior" I read a thread about a month ago where a guy shot an elk 7 times with a 7rum and couldn't drop it. Come to find out he was shooting a Barnes bullet at 780yds. Well guess what, that huge, overbore, more than capable, cartridge was rendered useless with a non-expanding projectile. This goes back to what I said in my previous post, bullet performance is everything no matter the cartridge!

 

[Tesoro]

I hear you now on what you meant by bullets. I thought you were referring to ballistics. Very true.
Marksmanship is equally if not more important than using the ideal cartridge and if you dont possess both then marksmanship wins. So add the right bullet to the mix and you can hunt adequately with a non magnum, which has always been my preference because I like to shoot alot.

 

[Bravo 4]

I think this has become more of a question of hunter ethics rather than cartridge capabilities. If you know what you are doing these cartridges are perfectly capable, even more so than many traditionally accepted big game cartridges. For example the 6.5 creedmoor with a 140 starting at 2800 will arrive at 1000 yds with more velocity, more energy and less wind drift than a 300 Win mag with a 165gr Barnes tsxbt starting at 3200fps. No one ever doubts the capability of the mighty 300 Win mag, but with a poor bullet choice it is inferior to a much smaller cartridge like the 6.5 creedmoor. If you want To talk about ethics that's fine, but just because a cartridge has higher case capacity and larger diameter projectile does not make it superior. Obviously, it should be assumed that one planning to hunt at 1,000yds would choose the best bullet for the job, but that is not always the case. In every thread dealing with terminal ballistics there are always guys shouting "exit hole for blood trail!" "My Barnes bullet retained 90% of its weight and your Berger blew up therefore mine is superior" I read a thread about a month ago where a guy shot an elk 7 times with a 7rum and couldn't drop it. Come to find out he was shooting a Barnes bullet at 780yds. Well guess what, that huge, overbore, more than capable, cartridge was rendered useless with a non-expanding projectile. This goes back to what I said in my previous post, bullet performance is everything no matter the cartridge!

Tim,
I agree that the cartridge is only part of the equation, it all should be thought of as a system. I always use a .308 and 7mm Rem as an example of this. No doubt the 7mag has more potential just due to the case capacity, but loaded correctly a .308 can have superior ballistics down range. Play the numbers game between the two; the 7 mag with a 150 corelokt and the .308 loaded with a heavy Berger. I'll take that .308 out past 400 any day.

 

[Timnterra]

I'm not ignorant enough to say, since I own a creedmoor I can shoot anything. I have a good working knowledge of what this cartridge and it's ballistic twins are capable of. I am also not arguing that it is the best long range hunting cartridge or that it was ever intended to be a long range hunting cartridge. I own a 6.5-284 and I like having that extra 200fps. But it is not vastly superior to the creedmoor. The difference at 1000 yards with the same bullet is only 0.3 moa of wind 130fps and 131 ft lbs of energy. That 3" less of drift would have probably put my bullet in the very back of the lungs instead of the liver, but would it have really changed anything? If you can't make the shot with a smaller cartridge you can't with a larger one. I would never have even taken the shot with my 300 Win mag because I am not as comfortable and confident with it at that distance. However, my good friend and hunting buddy will only hunt with his 300 Win because he is comfortable and confident with it at just about any distance. What you say about "systems" is valid. Cartridge, bullet, potential accuracy of the rifle, weather conditions and the overall competence of the shooter, in all things pertaining to long range shooting and hunting, all come to a head when you are deciding to take a shot at an animal at extended distances.

 

[surgeon260]

If you know what you are doing these cartridges are perfectly capable

I do not agree with this statement without qualifying it. No amount of shooter knowledge or experience or skill is going to help you discern the net wind vector with enough accuracy out on the swirling Colorado prairie at 1000+ yards in order to make a first round hit in the vitals with a 6.5CM. In a vacuum, sure, that bullet will kill a small deer or antelope. So when you say it comes down ethics, if you mean that a hunter must be willing to tolerate a maiming shot due to a bad wind call (unethical in my opinion), then I would agree with you.

In your example comparing 300WM with 165 TSX to 6.5CM with Berger 140, you may be correct that the 6.5 has better wind/velocity/energy characteristics, but that is a bit like saying an unglazed jelly donut is better for you than a glazed one. Neither one is really all that good for you.

Part of knowing what you are doing is knowing that there are variables outside of your ability to measure accurately, and knowing when not to take the shot.

 

[surgeon260]

If you can't make the shot with a smaller cartridge you can't with a larger one.

My 338 Norma Improved shooting 300 Bergers at 2920 is a hell of a lot more predictable in the wind than my 260 shooting 140 Bergers at 2850. So again, I disagree.

 

[Timnterra]

My 338 Norma Improved shooting 300 Bergers at 2920 is a hell of a lot more predictable in the wind than my 260 shooting 140 Bergers at 2850. So again, I disagree.

Does the recoil of that 338 Norma improved make you a better shot? Did you assume that somehow "knowing what you are doing" meant you know how to pull a trigger in a vacuum? Come on, if you can't judge wind it doesn't matter what you are shooting and if you can't shoot accurately it doesn't matter either.

 

[surgeon260]

My 338 Norma Improved weighs 22 lbs and has a TBAC Ultra 338 suppressor at the muzzle. It is an absolute joy to shoot, and it shoots smaller groups than my 260. And just to differentiate that claim from every other unsubstantiated internet claim, you can read about my rifle and my fireforming groups here:

http://forum.snipershide.com/threads/new-gradous-masterpiece.6289050

Carrying it in the field...ouch. It is a "find a hill and set up shop" type of platform when it comes to hunting.

It is a demonstrable fact that the 300 Berger gets blown around less than a 140 Berger. Let's say I erroneously judge the wind vector to be 8mph left to right, but it is actually 4 mph left to right due to downrange wind voodoo that I can't measure. Some quick Strelok calculations tells me that with the 260, my firing solution will include a 1.2 mil wind correction, or about 0.6 mil too much. At 1000 yards, that is a 20 inch error!

With the 338, Strelok tells me my wind correction is about 0.75 mil, or about 0.37 mil too much. That amounts to about a 12 inch error. So, 12" error vs 20". That is the power of bullet mass and ballistic coefficient.

FWIW, I consider both of those errors to be unacceptably large for shooting at living things. But there is absolutely a difference.

 

[Timnterra]

I think you are missing the point. It is completely obvious that a bullet with a better BC and higher velocity will perform better at long range no matter what it is. I never said a 6.5 140 would be better than a 338 300gr, or. 308 215gr, or a 7mm 180gr. Those bullets driven by much larger cases will always out perform the smaller bullets with lower BC, from smaller cases. However having bigger and better options does not prevent the smaller ones from accomplishing the same goal. The question was not what is the best long range caliber it was is a 6.5 creedmoor too small.