Irregular bullet preformance to consistency

[MagnumManiac]

Frangible ?

When I bought all the CZ 550 SAFARI CLASSIC MAGNUMS, except the 500 Jeffrey, the only ammo easily accessible was Hornady DGX.
What an absolute DISASTER of a bullet…
In every case, except 404 Jeffrey, those bullets either shed the jacket, broke up leaving shrapnel or turned into flattened coins.
The 404 Jeffrey was a different animal altogether, it barely mushroomed and 3 were found in Zebra bent and backwards facing to entry.
This put the final nail in the coffin for me regarding ALL Hornady products.
I shot a donkey with the DGX 458 cal 500g out of my 458Lott on the first day, it virtually exploded in the vertebrae of it's neck, thinking it was a fluke with bullet placement, I used my 450 Rigby the next day with the same bullet not anywhere near the spine, fragments were everywhere from striking behind the ribs, taking out ribs on the opposite side and clipping the lower leg bones as it angled through from a rear angling shot. The lungs were peppered with shrapnel, so was the inside of the ribs and surrounding organs, did not ever expect that.

Frangible? Definitely!

Cheers.

 

[fordy]

Gday magnum following on from your post above
the DG bullet / pill world is a fascinating thing of what some claim but ultimately it comes down too

some care
&
Some care more on selling

Cheers

 

[med358-boise]

Gday
This is often a fun one to delve into
So let's rip a few things apart & muddy some more ( if one can understand me being the first hurdle )

The first port of call is what is a irregular bullet ( pills as I call them or the projectile part of a bullet )

So to me it starts with the bullet company we get their standard to start with as they tell us that's how the pill works

Probably the best one that the vast majority of us know is Barnes & the ever so picture perfect mushroom that we all have seen so no need to attach a pic of one those

back to general pills now
But then we hear or have it happen to us but the pill blew up or penciled

Yet many others will come in & go no way I got this result & the better ones show pictures of their results and in many cases we get into this ****ing match & it goes off the track & ultimately we end up arguing about everything else than the irregularities that ultimately lead to a failure

Now I mean this with the utmost respect
Most people go off the good which is only part of the story & I like full stories & until we take the bad into account we will learn nothing as we are all happy in acceptance mode right
I like the good ones but in all reality the bad ones teach us more

The real issue is here ( the bad ones & % numbers aren't factual & is just a talking point for conversation sake ) as it may only be 50% that it shows up of being irregular & yet 50% of those may still give a good result of a fairly good killing efficiency
So now we are down to a 25% failure or are we
No way as now we need to analyse where those 50% irregularities are occurring & more importantly why / where the failure is occurring ( then add the happy with a dead critter people & man alive you now have real issues on that 25% getting found out especially if it's a company as then it's you get what they are happy with and that's a low bar although they will portray it differently )

Now let's break that 25% down further & This is the hard part as now you need numbers of critters & today I even struggle to get enough of them to form a higher probability of a irregular occurrence & ultimately a failure occurring
But what I am extremely lucky in doing is honing in on where a pill will give these irregular results & more likely failure point of seeing these failures occurring in the field


It's not that I'm smart it's far from it it's I'm measuring /recording a lot of things & a couple of my yank mates who I've had the pleasure of entertaining in my home state Tassie soon saw why I hone in on certain angles & resistances as if it passes them you just won't see that so called 25% failure rate

Best example I can give is my 6.5 data I gathered on around 10 pills if I was to shoot the critters like I know & has shown killed better I wouldn't have gathered a better indicator of a pill's capabilities @ those lower impacts & i pretty well guarantee I would then have a shaded view on where things work better down there as I did prior to that particular cull but I had my eyes opened pretty wide on what occurred

But let's get even more anal everything still showed irregular results across those low velocity test from pill to pill & within ea pill itself but also by breaking ea of them down & looking @ the process of the way ea pill was working I could see patterns & simpler version of that still holds somewhat true of soft was the more consistent player @ low velocity impacts but also I found a little more on wet & dry impacts & where the hydraulic system was playing roles in certain brands more than others & some seemed immune to needing fluid so are they the better option to use

Some cases yes others no imo but learn we can so to lessen our own risk of the irregular occurrence

Just think how we have heard the need to stay off bone or hit bone or keep that pill above or below certain velocities ,
Yep depends on one's choice of pill to it's actual good working velocity window & the bandaids we can apply also help to reign in some of the irregular eg cleaning hp to increasing twist rates etc

Just a little to start ticking on & one I'll add some more as we go

Cheers

What is it they said about the US and the British but in this case Aussie, two people separated by a common language.

With all civility and respect, I have no idea what you are trying to get at.

 

[ButterBean]

What is it they said about the US and the British but in this case Aussie, two people separated by a common language.

With all civility and respect, I have no idea what you are trying to get at.

 

[fordy]

Gday med358

What is it they said about the US and the British but in this case Aussie, two people separated by a common language.

With all civility and respect, I have no idea what you are trying to get at.

A few parts really
1st
Is how the pill behaves across various resistances which in reality we see irregular results

2nd
The capacity of that pill to determine it's overall performance level of consistency

& by analysing those you are in a position to make have a better understanding/ choice of what pill will give us a little more time or leeway before Murphy shows up

Case in point of pills used on here & using the 260 gr accubond on buff is going to get you into eventually I wish I had used a better pill in the HP OEP pill but the OEP bb one offers better reliability over both the previous pills & the list goes on as was discussed


So how do we get to a stage of not putting ourselves into the position of picking the accubond in the first place now to be fair on that it would be all be flipped around if we started chasing goats for example

That's the part Is one that we often fail to understand of where the pill's strengths & more importantly weaknesses are
So my main part is don't just look @ a dead critter it's we can all help our fellow hunter & by taking a little more notice ( with respect) we will start to see patterns

3rd
im @ the stage of my life I just can't keep going on the journey of finding better pills & need more help so putting this thread up to me is somewhat selfish as I'm looking for that person/s who can see things a little differently & see even in some great pills we have today that they have flaws or @ a minimum found wanting that bit extra & im not a person to accept those flaws as I will challenge the concept of that's all one can get out of a pill yes improvement but man I also get things majorly wrong on design but testing proves it was one way or another & learn we do ( my close terminal junkie mates understand failure is a form of education & growth well how we look @ it )
So I'm looking for a individual /s with fresh eyes that goes hmmm if only but you need to see it first to get to the level we are trying to get achieved

On achieving I've got in my possession various pills that no one makes & seen where companies can do it

I am not in it to make bullets as I have no need or expertise in that field
I just want a better pill for tomorrow as a smile is all I care about ( a lot in that smile for me but not many will understand that ) & covering more bases of what a pill can achieve is what I look for & some may say that's a pipe dream
Well not when you've seen what some pills can do

Think of all the great attributes of ea pill & try combing them to come up with a holy grail
That's been my journey for many decades & while I know the holy grail status will never occur the bar has definitely been raised

So get one's thinking caps on & lift the bar like the group I rub shoulders with now
On what we have documented is possible & need to confirm in more testing ( even on what pills I've got in my possession there are still improvements possible as I just got shown a broached pill can produce pop but no broached pill I've tested produces the pop that can occur so the bar can be raised no doubting that )
Hope that makes sense

Might be easier if I show what can occur & along with my bad writing skills lol
But first one needs to understand the weaknesses or less than ideal results of pills so maybe that's a better place to start
So please forward on one's Thoughts ( if one can understand me )

If one can't please ask & show where /what

If one doesn't want to change from what one uses as they already have the so called holy grail that's cool but a different path we are on that I accept

Cheers

 

[med358-boise]

Gday med358


A few parts really
1st
Is how the pill behaves across various resistances which in reality we see irregular results

2nd
The capacity of that pill to determine it's overall performance level of consistency

& by analysing those you are in a position to make have a better understanding/ choice of what pill will give us a little more time or leeway before Murphy shows up

Case in point of pills used on here & using the 260 gr accubond on buff is going to get you into eventually I wish I had used a better pill in the HP OEP pill but the OEP bb one offers better reliability over both the previous pills & the list goes on as was discussed


So how do we get to a stage of not putting ourselves into the position of picking the accubond in the first place now to be fair on that it would be all be flipped around if we started chasing goats for example

That's the part Is one that we often fail to understand of where the pill's strengths & more importantly weaknesses are
So my main part is don't just look @ a dead critter it's we can all help our fellow hunter & by taking a little more notice ( with respect) we will start to see patterns

3rd
im @ the stage of my life I just can't keep going on the journey of finding better pills & need more help so putting this thread up to me is somewhat selfish as I'm looking for that person/s who can see things a little differently & see even in some great pills we have today that they have flaws or @ a minimum found wanting that bit extra & im not a person to accept those flaws as I will challenge the concept of that's all one can get out of a pill yes improvement but man I also get things majorly wrong on design but testing proves it was one way or another & learn we do ( my close terminal junkie mates understand failure is a form of education & growth well how we look @ it )
So I'm looking for a individual /s with fresh eyes that goes hmmm if only but you need to see it first to get to the level we are trying to get achieved

On achieving I've got in my possession various pills that no one makes & seen where companies can do it

I am not in it to make bullets as I have no need or expertise in that field
I just want a better pill for tomorrow as a smile is all I care about ( a lot in that smile for me but not many will understand that ) & covering more bases of what a pill can achieve is what I look for & some may say that's a pipe dream
Well not when you've seen what some pills can do

Think of all the great attributes of ea pill & try combing them to come up with a holy grail
That's been my journey for many decades & while I know the holy grail status will never occur the bar has definitely been raised

So get one's thinking caps on & lift the bar like the group I rub shoulders with now
On what we have documented is possible & need to confirm in more testing ( even on what pills I've got in my possession there are still improvements possible as I just got shown a broached pill can produce pop but no broached pill I've tested produces the pop that can occur so the bar can be raised no doubting that )
Hope that makes sense

Might be easier if I show what can occur & along with my bad writing skills lol
But first one needs to understand the weaknesses or less than ideal results of pills so maybe that's a better place to start
So please forward on one's Thoughts ( if one can understand me )

If one can't please ask & show where /what

If one doesn't want to change from what one uses as they already have the so called holy grail that's cool but a different path we are on that I accept

Cheers

Fordy,

Thanks, I appreciate it.

If I can summarize:

1) There is often more to learn from failures than success.
2) Success is not simply defined as a dead critter.
3) With respect to evaluating bullet design, it is not just did the animal die but did the bullet perform the way it was designed and if not you have to look at the specifics and the details of each incident -type of failure, impact velocity, shot angle etc.
4) If we have enough incidents with details and specifics we will likely see patterns of failures for a particular bullet or even category of design.
5) The analysis of those patterns will lead to a better body of knowledge for bullet design.

Did I get pretty close?

 

[fordy]

Fordy,

Thanks, I appreciate it.

If I can summarize:

1) There is often more to learn from failures than success.
2) Success is not simply defined as a dead critter.
3) With respect to evaluating bullet design, it is not just did the animal die but did the bullet perform the way it was designed and if not you have to look at the specifics and the details of each incident -type of failure, impact velocity, shot angle etc.
4) If we have enough incidents with details and specifics we will likely see patterns of failures for a particular bullet or even category of design.
5) The analysis of those patterns will lead to a better body of knowledge for bullet design.

Did I get pretty close?

Gday med
Let's say I wish I had your writing skills as that's perfect

Thankyou very much

Cheers

 

[med358-boise]

Gday med
Let's say I wish I had your writing skills as that's perfect

Thankyou very much

Cheers

Glad I got it right and I appreciate the effort you are making on research. I also agree with your sentiment that if you are a shooter and you are simply satisfied with if the animal died the bullet succeeded that's fine but don't "take me to task" for pursing more knowledge. (I am not sure you said that and I do not mean to put "words in your mouth" but I think gathered that from your comments).

I will also add from what I hear, I wish I had 1/10th of the field experience you have.

Take care mate!