If I were to spend $1K on a scope...

[yobuck]

i would ask you to reread my original post and understand what i said. i didnt state what i thought was the better scope.
i certainly have no problem with someone buying whatever they want. ive owned the scopes i have, long before night force and some of the others even existed.
ive made the personal decision to stick with what i own for my use.
i pointed out what still works well for me. (not) as an example of what others should do.
however, i contend that there are many people out there who may be in a dilema over this issue.
it would be easy in my opinion, to get the impression that its necessary to spend large sums of money in order to aquire a good scope,thats suitable for what we do.
thats simply not the case.
there are plenty of scopes that can be bought for under $500,that are more than capable of doing the job.
at least untill after youve arrived, and can afford what you really want.
now as for the guy who brought up the boat issue.
it would be easy to spend $35.000 replacing a pair of large outboards.
i buy a new long ranger every time i fill the tanks.
but hell thats good for about 400 miles.
so you see, my scopes have to last.

 

[BravoEMike]

Greetings...

Re. Yobuck's response.

Thank you for the insightful response,
I think sometimes we slip off the subject easiliy here.
Your opinion has brought some levity for me.
I was wondering?
Is there such a thing as being...
Over scoped?
Over gunned?
Optic's seem to be approaching, or now cost more than custom made rifles,
I've been looking at the IOR delima,
****, I liked the looks of that scope.
Night Force soon with there FFP?
...features of the new Premier, Wow.
Then...
always, Pete Lincoln coming in with Schmidt & Bender,
surely I trust his judgement!!
Lest we should forget...now the Marines,
choosing Schmidt & Bender too!
Choices...
such is the sport we chose!
I am also looking for a new scope...
But, ****...three grand!!!!!!!!!

 

[Boss Hoss]

I have gone to the USO scopes and a SN3 built to your specs will be less than that.

 

[ScottBerish]

For $1000 your best bet is a Lupy Mark 4 or a used NF if you can get one for that price. Any top end scope from other manufacturers (Sightron, Nikon, Bushnell, Vortex, Zeiss, Trijicon) for less money will get the job done if the scope meets your requirements. Do you have to spend $1K? Heck no. Do you have to get top quality? I say yes. You guys are putting together high zoot, flat shooting rifles for long range hunting. Your rifle is only capable of reaching its intrinsic accuracy with a scope that performs just as well. It must hold zero, must track, the reticle subtensions must be true, it must be waterproof/fogproof, it must have good enough glass to positively ID and zero in on your target. It must be rugged enough to hold up to real use. Otherwise, you've got nothing.

Like all other optics, get the best quality you can afford that meets your requirements. Don't worry about keeping up with the Joneses. A scope is a gunsight, and hitting your target is the only goal.

 

[guns_and_labs]

ive never missed a shot because of the age of my scope, or the fact that it isnt up to nightforce standards.

I haven't MISSED, but I've declined to take shots when I had a poor sight picture due to low light, or couldn't quite get the right holdover. Since I sucked it up and upgraded to a great scope (with a painful price tag), I haven't had that problem. S&B glass and a user-friendly FFP reticle have taken away my last equipment-related excuses. Now I only pass on a shot because I think the shooter isn't capable, not the equipment.

 

[Boss Hoss]

I haven't MISSED, but I've declined to take shots when I had a poor sight picture due to low light, or couldn't quite get the right holdover. Since I sucked it up and upgraded to a great scope (with a painful price tag), I haven't had that problem. S&B glass and a user-friendly FFP reticle have taken away my last equipment-related excuses. Now I only pass on a shot because I think the shooter isn't capable, not the equipment.

100% agree---in fact my USO and S&B tubes have helped me put animals on the ground that the old tubes just can't do because of inferior coatings.

Example----from an elevated position take a NEW loopy scope and while facing the west sky after the sun has set (last 10-15 minutes or so of hunting) and point down into a darkened field. What you will see is where the light is refracting off of the objective and the ambient light is bleeding thru preventing you from seeing clearly (it will look like a light fog) into the dark field.

Now try this with a USO, S&B or a VMV and it is clear as a bell---This Exact Scenario cost me one of the biggest Deer I have ever seen at the ranch! Very frustrating to be able to see with your eyes but not with your scope! That was the end of trying to go cheap on glass.

 

[yobuck]

Greetings...

Re. Yobuck's response.

Thank you for the insightful response,
I think sometimes we slip off the subject easiliy here.
Your opinion has brought some levity for me.
I was wondering?
Is there such a thing as being...
Over scoped?
Over gunned?
Optic's seem to be approaching, or now cost more than custom made rifles,
I've been looking at the IOR delima,
****, I liked the looks of that scope.
Night Force soon with there FFP?
...features of the new Premier, Wow.
Then...
always, Pete Lincoln coming in with Schmidt & Bender,
surely I trust his judgement!!
Lest we should forget...now the Marines,
choosing Schmidt & Bender too!
Choices...
such is the sport we chose!
I am also looking for a new scope...
But, ****...three grand!!!!!!!!!

i dont think you can be over scoped or over gunned.
if you like it and can afford it, why not. life is short, (trust me on that).
we could spend our money on far worse things than quality guns and optics.
you mention the marines, and schmidt & bender. i believe premier is involved in that, but not positive. im sure that is a top quality setup.
but remember, the taxpayers are footing the bill for those things. so its monopoly money, cost means nothing.
do you remember a guy named whitefeather? i believe you will find he was also very successful as a sniper.
he didnt have a schmidt & bender, or a night force either.
i believe you'll find he used a unertle. which today, would also be considered obsolete.
i wouldnt tell whitefeather that though.
i wouldnt tell it to those old guys in pa. still using them for hunting either.

 

[CS T]

You can look at IOR but they are most likely a little higher than what you are looking to spend.

Mike @ CSGW

 

[BravoEMike]

Hi...
Re: Yobuck.

Geez...how does one write this without offending someone,
you brought back memories of things,
...some, say are best forgotten!

History...
I was on Hill-55,
and Hill-41, also been to Elephant Valley!
...and, I cannot remember meeting Hathcock (Whitefeather).
Unertle Scopes?
I have used...I DO NOT like them,
I don't think you should have to put a scope back into battery after each shot!!
I think there is a cult following,
using Unertle's in the bench rest sports...
We (Marines) had Weaver's too...and they fogged like the rest did,
Peep sights...never fogged,
well sometimes when the sweat ran into your eyes...
But...then you become 'obsessive compulsive',
...when you come home,
thinking about sight picture,
...and sight allignment. LOL
Don't think I ever saw a Unertle in our hunting camp...
When I get finished writing this,
I guess I"ll have to go back to group therapy.
We have a three hundred yard range just up the road.
I think Hathcock (Whitefeather)...
would agree with the new Schmidt & Bender replacement.
Sadly...he is gone now. He brought so much to this topic, and our sport.
I talked with an optics salesman,
at a gun show in Carlisle, Saturday...
he said the mid-priced optics today,
are better than the high-priced optics that were produced only a couple years ago,
...perhaps Scott from Liberty Optics can help with this.
I still like the glass on the Burris that I looked at.
Back to the subject at hand...
'scope under 1 K'
I just wanted someone to say that a Burris EuroMark 3-12X50 would be the perfect scope and they are around $700.00,
Guess I can keep wishn'

OH!
...and
yes...we were still winning when I left,
...and the burned out hulk of the AMTRAC that hathcock got blown off of,
was still sitting along the road!!
Cheers...

Semper Fi
Bruce ~~___/)~*~

 

[yobuck]

bravoemike, good to hear from one of our brave marines. god bless you for your service to our great country.

there was a little more than a cult following with unertle scopes though.

for many years, they dominated the target shooting, benchrest, and long range hunting sports.
i used one for years, and never pulled the thing back once.
but then i never removed the recoil spring as others did.
some claimed it could damage the scope w/ heavy recoil guns.
but it never did mine.
main problem with them is field of view.
some less experienced shooters lose the target after the shot, and have trouble getting back on due to small field. serious problem when shooting at an animal.
other than that, they are still a fine scope for long range shooting. quite a few are still being used in pa.
the one i use now on the same rifle, (a 30x378) is essentially the same scope. an old b & l balvar 6x24 x.
it has an external micrometer for adjustments, and a recoil spring just like the unertle. advantage, is field of view due to varieable power.
ive got no plans on replacing it.
im sure whitefeather would agree with you on the new scopes. but im sure also, he could still do the job with the old one.
again, thats my point. not whats best, but what will work, for losts less than some of the very good, but very expensive new scopes.

 

[slymule]

I'd also opt for the Sightron SIII, you can buy two of them for less than the cost of one Nightforce. My last one was $665. shipped to the door.

Was doing some target practice with another member of the LongRange hunting forum (AJ Peacock) a couple of days ago before he left to go on his elk hunt. He had a Nightforce 5.5-22 NXS on his Allen Mag and I had my new Sightron SIII on my 338Edge. I was taking a shot with his 338 Allen Mag and he was holding my gun, I asked him to take a look see thru my scope and let me know what he thought of the Sightron scope. After I shot I turned and asked him what he thought. He then looked thru both scopes and said "I think my Nightforce might be just a tad clearer". I then compared both of them sitting side by side and I couldn't tell a bit of difference between the two. His next comment was "well if you paid twice as much for your scope, you'd probably say it was just a little bit clearer too!"

 

[adam]

This summer I dropped the bucks on a Nightforce (once in a lifetime purchase for me) My dad bought the Bushnell 4200 6.5x24x50 with the 30mm tube.

I think I should have purchased the bushnell, or similar instead. Not because of any short coming of the Nightforce (OMG it is AWESOME) but because I had to push back the purchase of: A chargemaster, rounout gauge, wind meter, palm device, trajectory software, better bipod, anticant device, a really long cleaning rod and guide etc.

But...the NF still makes me smile every time!! woot

Edited to add: big plug for the Optic Zone. Found them on this board, and they are very fine people. I almost talked the old man into trying their house brand scope....i still may...lesser known name, but has the right specs.

 

[BravoEMike]

Yobuck...

Thank you for your kind words!
Well, and so...
Inept Jarheads...
and, Unertl Scopes
Geez...I didn't know their was supposed to be a spring on the **** thing,
I guess the Armorer'(s) took them off.
Well, it only took me forty years to find out...
Been laughing my *** off all morning.
I saw Unertl's in the gun shops here,
admittely, always wondered why they had a spring on them!
Oh Well.

I think our sport is driving the industry,
1.brighter/more dependable optics
2..more accurrate rifles
3. and lower prices.

I'm shooting a .300 Win Mag in an Accuracy International AWM-F,
Leupold MK-4 3.5-10X40mm Illuminated mil dot,
with M3 turrets, elevation turret with cam for .300 win mag.
its single turn and holds true for me,
wish it had 1/2 minute elevation adjustments though.
also wish it had 50mm objective!
5X more magnification!
Different reticle...hmmm perhaps?
...and Leupold MK-4's are all costing over $1000.00

Now comes Bushnell...
I looked through a...2.5-16X42mm, mil-dot, I was impressed!!
And it gets my vote for a scope costing under $1000.00,
as they are selling for about $725.00.
Not certain if they can be fitted with an single turn...after-market elevation turret.

I have never had the occasion to look at a sightron, but think there might be something there.
I can't find a shop close that has Sightron.

The **** Premier 3-15X50mm (single turn) has everything, I perceived and wanted!
I'm gonna go look at the new Premier...
...also, I am having Hart build me a new .338 Ultra Mag., and I am looking for a new scope for it.
The rifle will be lighter than my Accuracy International...
Hows about,
one scope, multiple rifles?
might make for an interesting thread?

Cheers...

Bruce ~~___/)~*~

 

[yobuck]

bravoemike.

no doubt the long range shooting sport has revolutionized the industry. there are scopes ive never even heard of.
without sites like this, it would be impossible for most of us to keep pace. certainly the products are superior to what was available even 10 years ago.
its almost mind boggeling.
for those just starting out, im sure it is.
the tennacy seems to be, buy the best, that way you cant go wrong.
the truth about optics is that on a nice day, many of them will look good. on a bad dreary dark day, the best will outshine the others.
but the argument can be made, that on those days, not much long range hunting is done anyway.
now i just know that statement will raise eyebrows.
i would rather see a young guy buy a gun and scope he can afford now, and may outgrow later. main thing is to get involved, do it, learn from your own experience, gain confidence, form your own opinions as to whats best for you.
the lesser expensive outfits today are head and shoulders better than we had 40 years ago.
savage for example, is building affordable rifles that would have set new records not many years back at 1000 yd. matches.
dont be too proud to own one, if thats your budget.
a dead deer wont ask what your equiptment was.

now mike, i will tell you a little story about the harts.
in the early 70s, i thought i was ready to graduate from a 300 win mag sporter, to a heavy bench rifle. the 6.5x300 wby. was still the king in pa. the 7x300 wby. was closing fast, as hornady had introduced the 162 match bullet. (there were very few decent bullets back then)
there were really only 2 gunsmiths with a reputation for building these guns in pa. at that time. then all of a sudden 1 of them up and died. that being al hoyer. i had never met him.
i went to howard wolfe and had an immediate good feeling about him. we talked about actions, he gave me 4 options. a pre 64 mod.70, any 700 series rem., a sako, or a rem. or win. enfield. later i called and asked about a hart custom action. he said that would make a fine bench gun. i ordered a #4 action and a 30" 1'250 barrel from hart. when i picked it up at harts shop several months later, wally hart was there. as per usual, there were a few guys hanging out b.s.ing. wally got my barrel and action, and then proceeded to ask what i was going to do with it. why werent they going to chamber it. when i told him what i was going to do with it, he really went off on me. some day one of you guys are going to blow your bleeping head off, and on and on. dont ever bring that back here for any repairs. i could have walked out under the door without opening it. i was so shook, i called howard and said hey look, my boys will be using this thing. he reassured me, and we went foward. today of coarse thats all changed. im sure young bob is largly responsible for that. but thats a sample of what things were like back then. you were on your own bub, all you could do is keep adding powder untill the gun told you to stop. there were no books to look at. there was a small network of guys to share with, and learn from. im very fortunate to have made some very good aquaintances, who became friends. mentors if you will. certainly the williamsport club was very instrumental in those days. but they were considered kooks by the benchrest community as a whole. ive never been a competetor, at least not seriously. but those who were, and are, are responsible for the choices you have today.

p.s. i put a unertle scope on it. loopy, snoopy, and the alphabet soup, werent much help back then. now dont get me started on all those other gadgets.