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I fouled up BIGTIME! Please read!
- Thread starter HARPERC
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Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
In 1972 when I was just back from RVN I decided to cobble together a subsonic load for a 7mm Wby to use to shoot turkeys. I had a Lyman manual which gave reduced loads but decided to reduce it lower than their lowest recommended load. I locked up the bolt twice and had to use a hammer to get it to lift. As others have said reduced loads are dangerous for a couple of reasons of which one is detonation and the other is double charging.
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Quit being lazy and check things out.
cowboy
Well-Known Member
So you are absolutely positive that an undercharge caused this even after he stated he used "very low book on the sources he had", multiple shots were fired before "all hell broke loose" with no pressure signs or indications - Hmm
Guess if I was on a jury and you were the prosecuting attorney I would want some further evidence.
Nice try though - I'm going to back otta here now and let others try to help this gentleman try and figure out what else could possible occurred that may shine a different light on the subject.
Buffalowhatever: this is not between you and I and I refuse to argue with you as my grandfather always said "never argue with an idiot, they will lower you to their standards and then beat you with experience"
I'm gone.
gunpower
Well-Known Member
Back in 2002, I had a detonation in my 30/06 using 2400 powder.
The result was a expanded chamber- 12 thou expansion.
Was shooting 180 gr. hand cast lead bullets. Had been shooting this load for years. I always double check the load before I use a filler and seat a bullet.
The bolt had to be hammered opened and a brass rod was used to remove the cartridge case.
The gun smith was sure that it was detonation an not a double charge.
I was by my self when this happened.
Had to have the face of the bolt repaired and a new barrel installed on the rifle.
The receiver was not damaged, like the gun smith said, it's a Ruger and it would take more than 12 thou. to damage the receiver.
So to this day I have not used IMR 2400 powder in any reduced loads for the 30/06!!
The result was a expanded chamber- 12 thou expansion.
Was shooting 180 gr. hand cast lead bullets. Had been shooting this load for years. I always double check the load before I use a filler and seat a bullet.
The bolt had to be hammered opened and a brass rod was used to remove the cartridge case.
The gun smith was sure that it was detonation an not a double charge.
I was by my self when this happened.
Had to have the face of the bolt repaired and a new barrel installed on the rifle.
The receiver was not damaged, like the gun smith said, it's a Ruger and it would take more than 12 thou. to damage the receiver.
So to this day I have not used IMR 2400 powder in any reduced loads for the 30/06!!
Sorry that all that happened. Sorry for the kid mostly as he was the one that was subject to it but sorry for you that you have to think about it.
Just throwing some advice out to you. When dealing with anyone that is shooting your gun with your loads, always make a checklist for yourself to help insure their safety (especially if its a child). Take that checklist with you and go through it right before he is going to shoot. Shooting glasses, ear muffs and all of the other firearms safety rules should all be included.
Another piece of advice, the kid is 10 and hasn't shot very much if at all. Get a .22 and let him pop cans at first and then move up to a 22-250 and so on. Reduced loads are pretty worthless in my book and a lot of things can go wrong with them.
Again, hope things go better. No need to keep beating yourself up about it but move on and learn from what happened.
Just throwing some advice out to you. When dealing with anyone that is shooting your gun with your loads, always make a checklist for yourself to help insure their safety (especially if its a child). Take that checklist with you and go through it right before he is going to shoot. Shooting glasses, ear muffs and all of the other firearms safety rules should all be included.
Another piece of advice, the kid is 10 and hasn't shot very much if at all. Get a .22 and let him pop cans at first and then move up to a 22-250 and so on. Reduced loads are pretty worthless in my book and a lot of things can go wrong with them.
Again, hope things go better. No need to keep beating yourself up about it but move on and learn from what happened.
tomestone
Well-Known Member
Regardless of the cause of the accident ,I will be better,don't be discouraged.Thanks For Sharing
winmag
Well-Known Member
Im glad the youngster is alright. i hope you recover as well, as your probably his only door to the outdoor sports. I've read numerous posts of yours, & many of them mention him, & how proud you are of his achievements.
You sound like a "father figure" of sorts to him. It takes balls to admit to failure, as a father, or mentor, especially with an undetermined cause.
We all feel for you both, but bows not the time to throw in the towel. Get him in the saddle ASAP! You'd never forgive yourself if he took this single bad experience to determine his future outlook on firearms.
"Oh ya, I had a gun once, & it blew up. After that, the guy teaching me kinda dissappeared & I never shot one again. Guns are bad & dangerous, so I don't allow my kids to use them....."
Or
"Ya, I had a mentor as a kid, & he taught me alot about how & why to handle, & respect firearms. Accidents can, & will happen. Sometimes, even to good people. But that man never gave up on me, & was a role model to how to handle diversity. He helped mould me into the man, & father I am today...."
Like it or not, he's going to look to you, & how you handle this. The outcome may well rest in your hands.
To admit your shortcoming, publicly to a crowd like this a big gamble.
Some of us understand how you feel, & why you did what you did. Others may see it differently.
As a whole though, I'd like to believe that this small LRH community are all breathing a sigh of relief that everyone will be ok.
Who knows, this thread may save someone else from having a similar experience.
Cowboy, you've been here longer than me, & you know BB. Ya, he's a bit coarse, & a bit rough around the edges, but you probably also know he has done more for our country than most, & his son is following in his footsteps.
Ya, I agree the timing, & content of his original post was a little infuriating to some of us who have held conversations with HarperC. But BB is known for speaking his mind, with NO sugar coating, & many times he's right.
We've lost a lot of great resources/members here over the last few years due to the overflow of, we'll, idiots for lack of a better term, signing up to LRH. BB, & Boss, & Bounty Hunter rarely sign in anymore, most likely due to the infestation of clueless newbys of a once close knit, great website.
If BB rarely checks in these days, he'd have no way of knowing Harper is one of the good ones. There's **** few good ones these days.
Cowboy, you've always been an honest, & strait shooter LRH member as long as I've been around. I respect you, & your posts. I even agree with you taking a bit of offence to his posts. But I just ask you to rember who/what BB is.
You sound like a "father figure" of sorts to him. It takes balls to admit to failure, as a father, or mentor, especially with an undetermined cause.
We all feel for you both, but bows not the time to throw in the towel. Get him in the saddle ASAP! You'd never forgive yourself if he took this single bad experience to determine his future outlook on firearms.
"Oh ya, I had a gun once, & it blew up. After that, the guy teaching me kinda dissappeared & I never shot one again. Guns are bad & dangerous, so I don't allow my kids to use them....."
Or
"Ya, I had a mentor as a kid, & he taught me alot about how & why to handle, & respect firearms. Accidents can, & will happen. Sometimes, even to good people. But that man never gave up on me, & was a role model to how to handle diversity. He helped mould me into the man, & father I am today...."
Like it or not, he's going to look to you, & how you handle this. The outcome may well rest in your hands.
To admit your shortcoming, publicly to a crowd like this a big gamble.
Some of us understand how you feel, & why you did what you did. Others may see it differently.
As a whole though, I'd like to believe that this small LRH community are all breathing a sigh of relief that everyone will be ok.
Who knows, this thread may save someone else from having a similar experience.
Cowboy, you've been here longer than me, & you know BB. Ya, he's a bit coarse, & a bit rough around the edges, but you probably also know he has done more for our country than most, & his son is following in his footsteps.
Ya, I agree the timing, & content of his original post was a little infuriating to some of us who have held conversations with HarperC. But BB is known for speaking his mind, with NO sugar coating, & many times he's right.
We've lost a lot of great resources/members here over the last few years due to the overflow of, we'll, idiots for lack of a better term, signing up to LRH. BB, & Boss, & Bounty Hunter rarely sign in anymore, most likely due to the infestation of clueless newbys of a once close knit, great website.
If BB rarely checks in these days, he'd have no way of knowing Harper is one of the good ones. There's **** few good ones these days.
Cowboy, you've always been an honest, & strait shooter LRH member as long as I've been around. I respect you, & your posts. I even agree with you taking a bit of offence to his posts. But I just ask you to rember who/what BB is.
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
I went back and reviewed the various responses, and I truly appreciate all of them. My intent was avoiding tunnel vision, and not missing even a small thing I did wrong. Buffalobob you were one of the folks I hoped would respond, and your frankness always adds to any discussion.
cowboy thanks for your thoughts
Tomestone thanks for the PM
Korhil 78, we will go back to the 22, then the 223, I will have the 6mm he was supposed to using put back into safe working order.
Winmag. No worries about quitting on the young man. He's had a tough couple of weeks. Crashed his bike a few days before this seems this is to be his time for learning to get back up, and he is.
Trust is hard to earn, harder to re-earn. Never even a blown a primer. Never put a scratch on a kid whose parents trusted me to take hunting. Never let down my partner that was standing next to the blast. Then there's the entire sport that's tarred by the failings of us few. I'm committed to re-earning that credibility and trust. God bless, stay safe.
cowboy thanks for your thoughts
Tomestone thanks for the PM
Korhil 78, we will go back to the 22, then the 223, I will have the 6mm he was supposed to using put back into safe working order.
Winmag. No worries about quitting on the young man. He's had a tough couple of weeks. Crashed his bike a few days before this seems this is to be his time for learning to get back up, and he is.
Trust is hard to earn, harder to re-earn. Never even a blown a primer. Never put a scratch on a kid whose parents trusted me to take hunting. Never let down my partner that was standing next to the blast. Then there's the entire sport that's tarred by the failings of us few. I'm committed to re-earning that credibility and trust. God bless, stay safe.
Joe King
Well-Known Member
I've always been on the fence about reduced loads and have never tried it myself. I've never had a reason to either, with a a pile of 22 rim fires a 9# 22-250 and the 243 to bring bring em along, I always just figured I could load up lighter bullets at a middling charge. What I've gotten from this and sadly from another's unfortunate results is that. Just like if you want to push a bullet faster get a bigger case! Well if you want to push a bullet slower to reduce recoil your better of in the long run using a smaller case.
For me that that method has worked well over the years, with one exception and she just wouldn't listen to everything just some of it. That particular gal being as tough as she is isn't recoil tolerant, well she want to show me that she could make a good decision about buying a rifle for herself. so she listens to the gun counter guys recommendation and bought a Ruger synthetic stainless (ok yep you got one that your grand kids will be using) she got in 30-06. So i pointed out all the good things she did right, but there was no getting around that she would be much better served with a 243 or 25-06. Well she's still got that 06 and after a helluva lot of tears bruises to the shoulder she finally came to terms with it, and shoots 110/125gr with middling charges most of the year, and when huntin season rolls around I go sight it in for 150gr. Stupid way of doing it as far as I'm concerned, but at the end of the season she's got her deer in the freezer and isn't learning to be scared of her rifle any longer. But all in all it just reinforces my notion that shootability of a rifle (for the individual) is maybe the most important factor when bringing someone along, and that the recoil of a rifle is best matched to the shooter, not adjusted for them.
loaders_loft
Well-Known Member
near as I can tell, it sounds like you picked a load at random and allowed someone else to shoot it? What ever happened to working up a load?
Next you took a young shooter out and didn't equip him with the proper PPE, and then failed to supervise the shooter.
Obviously you feel terrible. I would too. This is a good lesson for everyone, including me.
Thanks for sharing, even the bad news...
L_L
+1 on shooting the 22 for new shooters
Next you took a young shooter out and didn't equip him with the proper PPE, and then failed to supervise the shooter.
Obviously you feel terrible. I would too. This is a good lesson for everyone, including me.
Thanks for sharing, even the bad news...
L_L
+1 on shooting the 22 for new shooters
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
L_L thanks for responding, I did use loads from a manual. I did shoot loads from the middle of loads listed, but thinking about it a lot I realize I'm not certain how one works down a load. Absolutely on the glasses, he'll have a good set prior to any further shooting. Adult supervision was by my partner-right at his side, as we often take turns helping young shooters. Keeps fresh eyes on them, and hearing instruction from multiple sources seems to help. How he wasn't injured as well, is amazing. One can never have enough 22 time. We also used a heavier barreled 223, the 6mm was about the upper level of his comfort, and was our intention to hunt deer with it. If 223 was legal here I might have made that choice. I believe as Joe King wrote, and I'm not fond of loading up or down, rather if one wants more, get a larger case, if less use something less. I've told other kids show me you're a 200 yard shot, then we'll talk about a 200 yard rifle. I broke this personal rule, and opened the door to the variables of either a double charge, or an underloaded charge.
Appreciate your taking time to read and respond
Appreciate your taking time to read and respond
Just as a side note........... someone mentioned a few went with no problems. It could all be about powder placement in the case. If say that "bad" load was tipped forward and the powder was all forward and then got ignighted all at once I could see things going bad.
Recoil to me is more about bullet weight than powder charge. If you start with the lightest bullets avail for a given caliber that will let you get to min charges easier and still keep recoil down.
I just use teaching as an excuse to buy other guns!!! haha
Chin up, you were trying to do good. That is hard enough to find these days you don't need to get beat up over it. The story might help others and since your willing to take a beating from us internet folks to make that happen, good on ya.
Recoil to me is more about bullet weight than powder charge. If you start with the lightest bullets avail for a given caliber that will let you get to min charges easier and still keep recoil down.
I just use teaching as an excuse to buy other guns!!! haha
Chin up, you were trying to do good. That is hard enough to find these days you don't need to get beat up over it. The story might help others and since your willing to take a beating from us internet folks to make that happen, good on ya.
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
Powder position could for sure be one of the variables, while this shot was angled down more, it wasn't extreme. My partner was loading down and away to not let the shooter know if a round had been chambered, to demonstrate flinching, so the powder may have been more forward than in previous firings.
I've never needed much reason to find a gap in my safe. I can't recommend this one. Having never looked much for some 260's and such they seem scarce at this time.
I've never needed much reason to find a gap in my safe. I can't recommend this one. Having never looked much for some 260's and such they seem scarce at this time.
