Hunting without trajectory validation up to 600 meters possible?

[dsculley]

Trajectory is only half the equation. If you don't get to shoot long range in wind on a regular basis then you may be dead on with your vertical but your horizontal hold (wind adjustment) is still just a guess. Even mild winds can move a bullet more than you think at 600 m.

 

[Bravo 4]

Trajectory is only half the equation. If you don't get to shoot long range in wind on a regular basis then you may be dead on with your vertical but your horizontal hold (wind adjustment) is still just a guess. Even mild winds can move a bullet more than you think at 600 m.

I know the op said no wind, but that may just be at the shooter's position. I don't think that someone that doesn't shoot long range is versed/experienced enough to take a guestimate shot past his proven range. Can it be done? The equipment is up to it. Would I trust a manufacturer's data? Nope, I have a hard enough time trusting a chronograph 100%.

 

[Joefrazell]

Chrono the velocity and make certain you have a very good zero. Should be able to punch out a 1" circle at 100 with the first shot of the day consistently. ONE MORE THING!! you need to do a tall target test to confirm that your scope will track true. Then and only then you should be good at 600

 

[Snyder97]

As others have said, it is definitely possible to 600 yards (meters) with something like a 300 winmag.

Out to this distance, the main determiner of trajectory is velocity. At this distance you can have a very wide discrepency in BC, and as long as the velocity is spot on, you will be very close (as in within a very few inches or cm) to actual trajectory.

The BC's of bullets are published and more than accurate enough for this distance. So you won't have to true the BC or any of that.

The main issue you will run into is obtaining that accurate velocity. You will absolutely need that reliable chronograph. The velocity printed on the box should be regarded as nothing more than advertising.

Here is an example run on JBM Ballistics:180 grain Accubond @ 3000 fps, @ sea level.
600 meters @ a .507 advertised BC
Drop = 92.4 in / 234.6 cm
13.4 moa / 3.9 mil

600 meters @ a .557 BC
Drop = 88.8 in / 225.6 cm
12.9 moa / 3.8 mil

So you see that even a rather large BC discrepency has very little effect at this range with this caliber. It amounts to 3.5 inches or 9 cm. Or in angular measurements 0.5 moa or 0.1 mils. But that velocity has to be correct.

Thanks for your response

 

[Greyfox]

IMO, it is very possible to successfully set up a rifle to achieve accuracy to 600 meters/yards with a high level certainty given a properly set up rifle/scope, consistent ammo with accurate velocity, ES, and BC entered properly in a proven ballistic program. However, I agree with comments that given the OP's inaccessibility to long distance ranges, and seemingly lack of shooting experience at the longer ranges, I'd keep shots under 300 meters. There is a lot to be said about getting sufficient practice to build confidence and understand how to deal with variables such as shooting position, wind, etc, frequently encountered when hunting.

 

[ejg]

The best investment I made and possible many years too late was a chronograph. Now I can shoot cheap ammo in the 223 and hit fox at well over 300m. My 300wm is with 178 a-max seems to shoot well out to 900m, shot one deer above 700m and a few at the 400m mark. With the 308 20" I try to stay well under 500m because the 168 a-max seems run out of steam a bit. It is actually astonishing how well the data at least on the 30 cal A-Max 155-178 I have used seem to be. Then again I have over ten years experience with these three. Not sure if it is wise to just shoot at an animal without a few long range check shots if the drop is OK. I like to have my zero very well on, (I can shoot 100m in the garden to check) like the group to be under 1/2". Checking drops is not easy as wind plays a role, meaning I take longer range plinking sessions in as info and compare with different locations / shots with different wind. Can't change drop chart from one longer range target. Luckily I have a farm close by where they want me to chase away crows etc. There I can shoot at things out to around 800m. Great to learn to judge the wind. Especially if using the lousy BC of 223 50gr AE ammo. We in Ireland are lucky in that we can use suppressors which allow more shots closer to houses etc.
edi

 

[theosmithjr]

First of all: Why does someone even ask something like that?

In many European countries, there is no possibility to train long range shooting very often. Most shooting ranges have 100m and 150m targets. Of course, there are some shooting ranges with targets up to 1000 Meters, but they are usually not opened for civilians.

Maybe once or if you're very lucky twice a year, these military facilities are opened for a competition and most of the time only for a limited number of participants. Most countries just don't have long range shooting stands you can visit regularly. Hunters and shooters are very restricted by law as well. Zeroing your rifle in the forest? Forget it! Trajectory validation in an open field? Not allowed! (Depending on the country.)


Now Imagine: You're on a hunt. You see your trophy of a lifetime at 600 Meters (no wind). You absolutely have to take the shot because it's not possible getting closer. Hunting season ends tomorrow and you haven't shot anything yet. At the end you don't take the shot, because you don't know if your ballistic calculator is right and you don't want to injure the animal. Do you guys feel the pain?

Oh we envy the american people and their freedoms.

To the question:

Let's assume I have a 24" 1:10" 300 WinMag hunting rifle. The ammunition manufacturer published the bullets MV with a 24" 1:10" barrel as well. I give my StrelokPro sight height, zero distance, pressure, humidity, temperature, BC and MV from the manufacturer. Would it be realistic to hit
let's say a red deer buck in his vitals without having done trajectory validation?


How accurate are ballistic calculators when fed with the manufacturer BC's and MV's and how far can I expect it to be accurate?

I'd really like to extend my shooting distances up to maximum 600 Meters. I do train a lot. But only at 150m.

Like ANYTHING in life, practice makes PERFECT, or at least, very, very close to it! You can have all the latest, greatest gadgets in technology made! You can have the finest rifle ever built! You can have the finest optics ever! The most accurate ammo on the plant; but if you haven't PRACTICED with all the Gadgets, gizmos, rifle, optics, ammo, you got a better chance picking up a rock & chunking it out there at that Trophy Red Deer! I feel for you fellow shooters; whose dreams and desires in accomplishing something thats Prohibited by your countries law. This is something we Americans, at least some of us, take for Granted! Take your rifle sir, zero it 100m. Get your Muzzle Velocity. Find yourself a BALLISTIC PROGRAM on the WWW, there are several very good ones available. With your Rifle ZEROED, KNOWING your MV, weight of bullet, and distance of your Line of Sight ABOVE the Bore; you CAN EXPECT to BE "IN the BALLPARK"! You can then Expect to be "In the STRIKEZONE" once you add in all your Atmosphereical Variables; BUT, to make CONSISTANT KILLS at RANGE, YOU NEED to PRACTICE all the aforementioned things. Good SHOOTING Friend! I never say GOOD LUCK, because when and if you do all this; its NOT LUCK, ITS SKILL! Theosmithjr

 

[misterc01]

Personally I would not try to take any game at over about 300 yards. And my rifle is accurate (sub-MOA) and zeroed at 600 yards for long range shooting. IMHO better to pass without hands-on experience and total confidence at those ranges than take the chance of just wounding the animal.

 

[User4302021]

Thanks for your response

I didn't mention it in my initial response, but the other necessary item (besides an accurate rifle and ammunition) is a reliable, dialable scope with some type of mil or moa based reticle to hold for wind.

 

[xsn10s]

Now Imagine: You're on a hunt. You see your trophy of a lifetime at 600 Meters (no wind). You absolutely have to take the shot because it's not possible getting closer. Hunting season ends tomorrow and you haven't shot anything yet. At the end you don't take the shot, because you don't know if your ballistic calculator is right and you don't want to injure the animal. Do you guys feel the pain?

Oh we envy the american people and their freedoms.

I'm sorry Snyder97 I didn't fully comprehend the scenario you were presenting. Here is my stance and actual hunting experience I had while bowhunting elk. It was my first elk bowhunt and I went out with a group. I had a "hair tag" which would allowed me to shoot at anything. But I passed on a chance of a cow with a calf at 15 ft that I called in. It was because I didn't know if I could shoot at a cow with a calf. In my area it was legal, in Alaska where I hunted Caribou it wasn't. And I didn't fully read the regulations so I passed on the shot. 10 minutes later I called in the bull, not huge but still respectable and I was excited. Right when I was about to shoot it I heard over the walkie talkie one of our group said he got a hit, but a bad one. So I passed on the shot. Why? Because I didn't want the chance of two possible poorly shot animals on our hunt. It's a personal preference with no real wrong answer. For me at my age I'd rather cut down the bad experiences, especially when I have control of the situation. The positive about my hunt? I got closer to elk first time out then most will ever get in their lifetime. 15ft! I'm good with that. So far Americans have the freedom to take a shot, or not to. Let's pray it stays that way.

 

[tuscan]

Agree with Dog Rocket's responses, and add this to his example. Applied Ballistics says a 100fps change in a 7mm Rem Mag (from 2975 to 2875fps) at that range is .3 mils difference, or 7.1 inches. That's a very meaningful difference on a kill zone target of 8-10 inches.

Echoing what others have said about the need to practice to become proficient at managing all the variables. Another example, 5mph crosswind at 600 meters using a 7mm 162 grain ELD-X bullet is just under .5 mils - almost 12 inches. That's an unacceptable variance on game, so you really have to become proficient at reading wind at that range. You may not feel it where you are sitting, so you have to know when you see it downrange and learn how to estimate it. At my home range, I have 2 moa plates at 200, 500, and 700 yards. For first round hits from prone the 200 is no challenge in any condition. 500 is simple in most conditions, but not gusting winds. 700 requires very favorable wind conditions for me to make 1st round hits. Beyond 400-500 yards, the difficulty increases disproportionately to the distance.

Two suggestions for you - first, move to the US. If that's not practical, start practicing at the 100 and 150 ranges with an accurate 22lr. The elevation and windage adjustments will be big challenges, and you'll learn from managing them.

 

[ejg]

One thing I have tried in the past (I know one shooter proves nothing) was to let a person that has never ever fired a rifle before go behind my 308 off a car bonnet with rear bag at a 500m carboard target. On that day I had about a 4" group the beginner had a 7" 5 shot group. This year I let a friend of our family, 19yr old guy fire a shot from the same rifle at my 100m zero target. His shot and my following shot was under 1/2" apart. I think it is a very interesting subject of what needs to be done to a rifle to make it shoot less fussy. Target rifles are easy... it's the hunting/tactical rifles that must be built really well to shoot at the same spot with different shooting positions. Made my hobby to my profession and working at that since 12 years. What I am trying to say is that some rifles are more difficult to shoot with than others.
edi

 

[CaptnC]

IMO...from my experience (limited experience, but shoot regularly out to 600yds) I think it could be done under the right circumstance.

But first I would confirm that the scope has repeatable turrets. If that is GTG...

Second I would run my load my over a reliable chronograph two maybe three different days in hunting weather/temps to confirm velocities.

I use JBM Ballistic Calculator out to 600yds with several different calibers and it has been good enough to dial up a shot to hit 8" steel at that range.

Of course I'm telling you all this after my days shooting at 600yds. But it really just confirms what I'm saying.

I screwed a new barrel on 6.5X284 two weeks ago. Did a 25 shot break in with some loads I had for the previous barrel. I logged the velocities on most of those and the "test" loads that the data I grabbed out of thin air.

It was within 20 fps of my dope card to I went with that to dial up two shots. One at 400yds and one at 600yds. Both shots at two different steel plates...see attached photos!

I think you could kill just about any thing at those two yardages...

That's off a bipod and one small bag...

 

[Jpron]

I smacked him at 866 yards this morning. You must totally understand your ballistics and practice often at longer ranges. But yes it can be done. Not only understand your ballistics but believe in them. Math doesn't lie, you'll start figuring out how wind affects bullets the more you practice. I often shoot in wind to learn movement.