How nonsense becomes fact.

[338 dude]

I have a rifle that has extremely hard bolt lift with a commercial Hornady load.

Is that load safe because it's a commercial load? I have always avoided it because conventional pressure jargon says that that is a pressure sign. Though I'm sure Hornady has a lot fancier pressure testing equipment than I do.

Bolt lift is one sign what does the brass and primer look like and have you ever checked velocity or measured the fired case look at all the factors also in your load information did they use the same length barrel rate of twist everything must be taken into account also if everything checks out fine you have possibly galled the lugs on your action if it is only a bolt lift problem that you find

 

[bigngreen]

I have an older Pressure Trace, Quickload multiple high quality chronographs and when I used all those tools all I did was confirm those pressure signs and measuring case head expansion related fairly close to the pressure we have always worked with. The brass is the weakest link, it does not matter one hoot what pressures your at, all that matters is your brasses capability to hold it, if your shooting soft brass your likely not going to be braking 60k and seeing pressure signs that make you think your at 75k OR you could have very good quality brass that will handle 70k and you'll start seeing the same pressure signs as the lesser brass at 60k.
The brass being the week link and really what we are trying to keep out of our face THATS the pressure signs we need to watch, velocity will land where it lands.

 

[gator378]

Good post
Now if everyone will listen.

I work on many rifles that the owners used this philosophy and think the load has to be as hot as possible. SAAMI sets the pressure standard using many factors and if used, there isn't normally any problems as long as the chamber hasn't been altered. These pressures are also normally used in the loading manuals to get the velocity, so pressures will stay in the design limits.

Pressure is not just some arbitrary number It is derived at for many reason and should be followed. Many of the older cartridges used much lower pressures because of design factors of the rifles, components, and simply the dependability of the system.

With pressures getting higher and higher in the New cartridges, Liberties are being taken with many older cartridges and the results are showing more and more on all of the equipment. Maybe It is to easy to follow the instructions on the loading manual and have a cartridge perform like it is supposed to.

Velocity is one of the best ways to reach near max loads. If the velocity is not what you wanted, you may have picked the wrong cartridge for the caliber. My advice to all is follow the SAMMI recommended pressure and stay just below it and you will have many years of fun shooting and not hurt your rifle or the components, the other option is to visit your Gun smith often for problems or repairs.

It is actually very simple, When/if you start seeing ejector marks or and shinny places on the case head, or smashed primers, you have gone to far and should immediately back off on you load By one grain if no other changes are made. Each rifle is different and reading the brass although used frequently should be avoided because it is just an interpretation and not very accurate .

Common sense alone should tell a reloader where the limit is for any cartridge and we should expect no more from it. Joseph Goebbels (Propaganda Minister for Hitler) said (If you tell something that is wrong enough times, It becomes right).

Very good advice Fifty.

J E CUSTOM don't forget the loose primier pockets. Had a few of those time to back off a grain or two.

 

[milo-2]

It is rare these days I run enough powder for ejector marks, never the less a stiff bolt.
Today, when i first get a new rifle, I run what guys today are calling a velocity ladder, 2 rds of selected charges in increasing amounts. I have done my research and know where I want to be velocity wise.
After I do this, I come home and decap primers in a universal decapping die. The second the primers no longer Pop out, or come out with way less resistance, you are enlarging primer pockets. Right then the decision is made, go either way.

 

[J E Custom]

This is confusing to me, the first sentence seems to imply it is very simple to read brass And explains how to do it, while the second clearly says reading brass should be avoided because it is not very accurate.

Sorry It is not clear, but I was simply trying to say reading pressure signs accurately takes experience
and no one should depend on it to judge pressure. also when you begin to see signs, you are there or over the SAMMI recommended pressures. Reading pressure signs only tells you that you have excessive pressure, it only tells you that you have grossly exceeded the pressure when something fails.

The loading manuals are only a guide and are rarely accurate so most will tell you start low and work up because they can't predict what your firearm will do with the load. What I was trying to say was, if you see some of the signs mentioned, don't try to guess what the pressure is, just back off until the signs disappear.

As far as I know, No one can look at a case with these pressure signs and tell you how much pressure you have. even with experience all they can really tell you is it is to much. So my recommendation is to use the signs as a means of telling you that you are over max and need to back off. Just like a stop sign doesn't tell you to slow down. It tells you to STOP. Just because you get away with the rifle not blowing up for years with slight signs of pressure doesn't mean you are not over the design pressure, only that you have gotten away with it and shortened the life of all of your components and the firearm.

Be happy with what you have and don't expect more than it can produce by exceeding the design pressure. (Even if you are not getting pressure signs, some brass will hide the the "Signs"by having a quality alloy or a better case design.

Pressure is like thin ice, Travel at your own risk.

Just my opinion having been there and done that.

J E CUSTOM

 

[epoletna]

I will never forget wandering into a very small, but very well known gun shop in Southern California many years ago (~1967) as the owner and his friend were working up a load for a pistol. I don't remember what cartridge it was, but it was probably a wildcat of some kind as they were famous for their hot wildcats.

The friend had just loaded up a cartridge and proceeded to shoot it into a large tree stump they kept for that very purpose. There was a very heavy report, and the guy turned, shook his hand and said "well it must not be too hot -- I still have my hand!"

That was my introduction to "testing" wildcat cartridges. Not a good introduction.

 

[JASmith]

Any time pressure is high enough to cause one's brass to move, is a time to BACK OFF on the charge weight!

Even minute flowing brass means that the material's yield strength has been exceeded and one is not very far from disaster.

There is some load-to-load variation in pressure, and the round that produced the movement might have been one showing the low end, and the next round the high end....

 

[RAGGED EDGE]

I was reading up on 30-06 AI, and came across an article on Shootingtimes.com , 30-06 AI reloads .

In there the writer describes his journey to producing reloads, and ends with

"... I used the usual pressure indicators of primer appearance and bolt lift to estimate how safe the "hotter" handload recipes were ..."

Usual since when, and by whom.

There is an example of a respected publication spouting often repeated nonsense, that people who don't know better about will assume is the right way to find the limit on hot handloads.

Imagine - "I can't understand why, I added one grain of powder at a time, and the bolt lifted easily each time till everything suddenly blew up ."

There is a way to find the optimum load for your rifle, that could improve on factory data, but that is not it. He measured velocity, but was comparing it to nothing known. The point of recording velocity is to check it against the known limit.

The writer ends with "Coincidentally, the Speer Reloading Manual #4 (circa 1960) includes recipes for the .30-06 AI, and the maximum velocity listed exactly matches my results."

So, by sheer dumb luck, the "feel" and the "look" gave the matching result to a measured proof barrel. At least he's lucky.

This is an example of when nonsense is repeated often enough, it becomes generally accepted fact. You cannot determine pressure change by looking at or feeling metal. It requires physical measurement.

The correct approach is to first find reputable data, and work up the load. If there is no data, there is software nowdays to estimate for you. But not to keep adding powder while checking how the primer looks and how the bolt feels.

A LOT of older reloading manuals should be kept for an outhouse emergency, in case the Charmin runs out. Lots were published without reliable pressure-testing equipment. CAVEAT EMPTOR!

 

[Savage 12BVSS]

It seems of late we are starting to try to police everyone in regards to gun safety, loading safety and even how to work up their own loads. Don't know how everyone made it before they had others to think for them. Don't agree with the crowd and you get attacked and or put down. Hope this is temporary with frayed nerves due to conditions beyond our control. Some threads go sideways for no reason while other threads are started to promote discord from the opening post. What happened to sharing experiences? Are only some experiences by some individuals of value now?

 

[P7M13]

just another covid19 spittin contest . you guys might want to go check out the match/ hunting bullet thread too

Like sitting around the hunting camp fire, there's lots of BS, mumbling, spitting, farting and belching. In between the noise there are a few gems of wisdom shared.

I have a rifle that has extremely hard bolt lift with a commercial Hornady load.

Could be the throat or just a super tight chamber. Brother has a rifle that will not feed some commercial cartridges, and the only difference is the case OAL.

Don't know how everyone made it before they had others to think for them.

And I am thankful that I've made it this far with all the stupid stuff that I have done.

 

[338 dude]

It seems of late we are starting to try to police everyone in regards to gun safety, loading safety and even how to work up their own loads. Don't know how everyone made it before they had others to think for them. Don't agree with the crowd and you get attacked and or put down. Hope this is temporary with frayed nerves due to conditions beyond our control. Some threads go sideways for no reason while other threads are started to promote discord from the opening post. What happened to sharing experiences? Are only some experiences by some individuals of value now?

Well said !

 

[338 dude]

Like sitting around the hunting camp fire, there's lots of BS, mumbling, spitting, farting and belching. In between the noise there are a few gems of wisdom shared.
Could be the throat or just a super tight chamber. Brother has a rifle that will not feed some commercial cartridges, and the only difference is the case OAL.
And I am thankful that I've made it this far with all the stupid stuff that I have done.

Me too! with all the stupid stuff I've done

 

[bigngreen]

A lot of the SAAMI pressure levels have zero relationship to modern firearms, an extreme example would be the 45-70 being spec'ed to keep a trap door from launching, drop a 45-70 in to a mauser 98 and your experiencing a whole new level of power since you can let the brass be the week point. Yep WAY over SAAMI, absolutely safe, WAY over book velocities, absolutely safe. SAAMI is there to help a manufacture stay within a lawsuit proof range of specs and to have a common language to work within, there is little relevance to the individual rifle and it's capability.

We seem to be accepting the fallacy the Pressure equals Velocity which is utter garbage, you can not look at a chronograph, look in a book at the tested pressure and velocity and think your at the same pressure. If you've ever ran a Pressure Trace on a barrel and ran multiple powders you'll quickly learn you can change TIME and TIMING to get more or less velocity at the same pressures. AREA UNDER the CURVE is what give us velocity which we can manipulate in a couple ways!! The things you can do if you duplex a load, that's changing the TIME and TIMING not the pressure but you get more velocity, if we went by only velocity we'd only have like a dozen powders but no, we can use different powder formulas to change the time!

 

[RAGGED EDGE]

Long ago and far away (1968 in central PA) I learned that reloading, taken lightly, is a fool's game. In a gunshop owned by the family of some school mates I came across a pair of blown-up Remington 760s owned by a father and son. It seemed that a load of what turned out to be 4198 is NOT a good substitute for a case full of 4831. Now anyone can make a mistake. However, when the Dad shot his rifle and the magazine exited the rifle through a now 1.5" wide mag well and buried in the ground between his feet, and he told his son to "shoot one" a grave mistake was made. Sonny did, same outcome. Any other gun may have killed someone. They were lucky. One of them received a few splinters. The mag wells acted as a gas port, saving both their butts. Both guns were destroyed. Now an opinion: Backing off a half-grain when pressure signs occur is NOT enough. Drop a grain and a half, and work to an accuracy node from there. Again, Just an old guy's opinion.