At some point there is a minimum energy level required for penetration. It is part of the equation, but IMO most all typical big game hunting calibers far exceed whatever the minimum energy is as long as their minimum impact velocity is maintained. Minimum velocity is the only thing we need to track.
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How Much energy is too little?
- Thread starter WyoTex
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memtb
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Taj
Well-Known Member
Koda,
Absolutely, you are correct. My point is that too many folks get wrapped around the axle over energy numbers. We need that velocity to get the bullet to the target and generate the needed penetration and if we achieve that, terminal energy numbers don't really matter. I do wound ballistic workshops to LE for a major ammo maker and shoot a lot of gel. I still find that many of my customers ( although they are getting fewer) think that .45acp's knock people down.
memtb
Well-Known Member
FEENIX, I thought the OP was to debate the fallacy about the importance of ft/lbs. energy.
While kinetic energy and ft/lbs are perhaps related, the topic is ft/lbs energy….. which a the misleading term used by bullet manufacturers for many years. It gave us, the somewhat gullible, shooters a method to compare cartridges……however incorrect and useless it may be! memtb
This subject can be all over place and opinions equally as well. Ultimately a good vital shot will be the best starting point for anything regardless of energy. Archery does kill with a lot less energy but big rifle energy not vitally placed doesn't guarantee a recoverable animal. An animals will to live can vary as well. During the season I track a lot of deer for folks with my cur. All of them generally non vital hits and doesn't matter what caliber hit them. Gut shot with 300 win mag usually equally the same result as a 243. Deer runs a few hundred yards and lays down. This is just my experience. I've seen some deer not hit very good at all lay down like they were in their last breath and tracked some that go a mile with most their guts left at the hit site. And most deer I track are for grown men and very few kids I've tracked deer for make as bad of shots ironically. I can't tell ya how many men shot the front leg and swear they dropped him through a double lung hit just to learn the deer was hit in its knee.
Varmiter71
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Nebraska deer regs. requires 800 ft/lb at 100yd for rifle and 400 ft/lb at 50 yd for handguns.
Nothing is said about energy at impact.
Ranges where I am at can be really long
Nothing is said about energy at impact.
Ranges where I am at can be really long
Our beloved Jerry (RIP, Brother) was the most level-headed/open-minded LRH member I know and most of us look up to him for sound advice.
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This is because bullet deformation in a liquid like media depends on dynamic pressure so the animal is "hard enough" to expand the bullet. Basically, at a certain impact velocity, the "deer" is harder than the bullet as the material can't get our of the way fast enough and the bullet deforms. As the bullet penetrates and slows down it will stop deforming. You can impact steel plate at much lower velocity and there is plenty of energy to deform the bullet
Just saying - minimum expansion velocity alone is not an indicator of killing power any more than energy is stand alone
Lou
Im in the impact velocity camp.
Only throwing this out there for the sake of conversation, but... if one wanted to go down a rabbit hole they could read about Chuck Hawks Veolcity Based Killing Power formula.
Im not certain how valid it is but its an interesting way to quantify a cartridges "killing power".
Only throwing this out there for the sake of conversation, but... if one wanted to go down a rabbit hole they could read about Chuck Hawks Veolcity Based Killing Power formula.
Im not certain how valid it is but its an interesting way to quantify a cartridges "killing power".
Taj
Well-Known Member
Lou,
You are right. Expansion, if you get it, usually occurs within the first couple of inches of penetration. We see this in gel testing all the time. Modern rifle bullets are designed to have a wide range of velocities at which they will expand although expansion can vary widely according to the impact velocity. On the LE side of the house , especially in handgun bullets, expansion is not something we rely on getting 100% of the time. Variables such as the type of clothing a person is wearing or any other intermediate barriers can can affect expansion. Plugged HP's have a tendency to become FMJ's and will go completely through a 16" block of gel in all of the handgun calibers. Expansion in any bullet should never be considered a cure for poor shot placement or penetration.
I've killed some pretty large critters, very effectively, with heavy, solid rifle bullets.
Well I killed a whitetail doe with a 45acp 200 grain xtp out of a 1911 at 80 yards, but the bullet flight time went from nice broadside shot to a femoral artery in the rear ham! Luckily she was done in 20 yards. My avatar lion was a JM S&W 629 45 acp revolver she was dead at the hammer strike. Now an elk at 10 yards with hard cast bullets possible but why? I've shot a few elk and I personally think they deserve to be hit just as hard as the shooter can possibly stand.
You just can't dummy it down better than that. Let's not not get into the splitting on the atom.
But a bullet in a box or a broad head on an arrow flies without energy? How?
