How do you control neck tension?

[bookworm]

This is some good stuff fellas. Thanks for taking the time to reply...especially nice pictures woods. I do have a few follow up questions.

woods - Any thought as to why the Redding did not perform as well as the others? I was actually thinking that I was going to get the Redding FL Bushing die. Any thoughts on if the FL might perform better than the neck? The pin gauges are pretty cool...what does a set like yours cost?

Tom H - do you get satisfactory results with your Redding Bushing dies?

boomtube - I think I read on the Lee site that one should not use their collet dies for hunting ammunition. Is that true and if so do you know why?

 

[woods]

The bushing dies size the outside of the case neck to a specific dimension. When they size the outside, all the neck thickness variations are pushed to the inside. It is all but impossible to get 100% consistant neck thickness from outside neck turning (at lease IME) so there will be some variation in ID of neck when using the bushing dies. Unless you use the expander that comes with the bushing die which would not make a lot of sense since you could have accomplished that by using a much cheaper FL die.

The pin gauges costs me $55.00 and I got them from CDCO Machinery Corp. . Go to measuring tools and then pin gauges and they are on the right hand side. It won't let me post a direct link to the exact page. I got the .250 to .500" ones.

I do a lot of hunting with loads sized with the Lee Collet. The caution is probably due to the Lee Collet not creating much of a bullet grip since the mandrels are typically only .001" below caliber. That is why they recommend using the Lee Factory Crimp die with the Lee Collet, to put a crimp on it.

But like boomtube said, there is little benefit to sizing the ID of the neck much smaller for excessive bullet grip since once your reach the elasticity of the brass it will stretch and hold with the same force if you sized to .002" less than caliber or .004" less than caliber. My guess is that point is .002" and the way I got that was from pulling bullets with different ID'S before seating and then measuring them with the pin gauges. They all returned to .002" less than caliber even if you started out .002" less or .004" less.

I ordered additional mandrels from Lee for $5.00 each and shoot for a .003" bullet grip. You can also spin the mandrel in a drill and hold some fine sandpaper against it to lower diameter, but that is much harder to do because you have to get the entire mandrel to a consistant smaller diameter since the entire mandrel goes down through the neck.

YMMV

 

[boomtube]

"boomtube - I think I read on the Lee site that one should not use their collet dies for hunting ammunition. Is that true and if so do you know why?"

It's a common precaution to only use easy chambering ammo for serious hunting so that's not unique to using Lee's neck sizer. Why? Neck sized cases may not chamber as slick and smoothly as FL sized cases. I suppose it's a good idea to only use FL sized ammo but it's never been a problem for me, I use neck sized ammo for anything.

BUT - I DO suggest feeding from the magazine and chambering every hunting reload before leaving home with it, both neck AND full length sized stuff.

 

[TOM H]

This is some good stuff fellas. Thanks for taking the time to reply...especially nice pictures woods. I do have a few follow up questions.

woods - Any thought as to why the Redding did not perform as well as the others? I was actually thinking that I was going to get the Redding FL Bushing die. Any thoughts on if the FL might perform better than the neck? The pin gauges are pretty cool...what does a set like yours cost?

Tom H - do you get satisfactory results with your Redding Bushing dies?

boomtube - I think I read on the Lee site that one should not use their collet dies for hunting ammunition. Is that true and if so do you know why?

Redding sell a type S bushing die set that gives you a bushing neck die an FL body die and seater that pretty much cover what you need. the BR guys had been using bushing dies for many years and I'm sure other used them also they did required a different press. Redding was the first to start making bushing dies for what I call the average reloader using a standard press and they made them so you didn't need to use the expander and you could use the Wilson bushing beside theirs. I like bushing dies that don't use a standard expander and I think
redding make a good die and I've had good luck with them in the ones I use. Well good luck

 

[Boss Hoss]

The post above makes a good point about neck turning-----my Smith always makes a mandrel to use that expands the neck to the absolute optimal dimension then the outside of the necks are turned he does not turn the inside of the necks. This is the way he prepares his own brass and is a HOF shooter and World Record holder. The other thing is that you need to always use the proper lube on the mandrel so heat does not build up during the turning operation---that causes expansion and inconsistent results.

 

[Boss Hoss]

Here's a good one.
Ballistic Edge Mfg - Offering*four distinct*models of accuracy-enhancing annealers

Len---Thanks----the one Speedy has is the BC-1000. That is one of the next things on my list to get since he is in Colorado now.

 

[tlk]

Woods, a couple of questions/observations, using the 30-06 as an example:

-I have noticed that with my Lee Collet die the depriming shaft (for lack of a better term) is at .3055. Now I can set it so that my necks can go all the way to .304 or less (prefer to keep it at .305). I have found that this can be done with necks that are .011 or all the way to .015 in thickness, with varying degrees of effort on the press. So I guess I don't see where neck thickness has anything to do with the ID of a case – it appears to be more a function of the OD of the item that it is sized against, especially in a collet die. Can you shed some light on this, please? This may be because I am using the depriming pin/shaft – I think you have stated in the past that you have not. I have not been able to get low runouts and consistent neck ID's without it, even with neck turned brass. (with it I am usually at .002 runout, with a few .001).

-There are many variables that contribute to low velocity spreads – are you saying that your process of being as exact as possible with the neck ID is a major contributing factor? The only reason I am asking is because when I read all that you do to a case to get it where you want it I am left wondering – is this pin guage and the process here on this thread the thing that gets him those low spreads or is it just a piece of it. IOW, I want spreads that low, haven't seen you detail this process before and am wondering if the net gain is justifying the added cost/steps in your opinion.

 

[woods]

Woods, a couple of questions/observations, using the 30-06 as an example:

-I have noticed that with my Lee Collet die the depriming shaft (for lack of a better term) is at .3055. Now I can set it so that my necks can go all the way to .304 or less (prefer to keep it at .305). I have found that this can be done with necks that are .011 or all the way to .015 in thickness, with varying degrees of effort on the press. So I guess I don't see where neck thickness has anything to do with the ID of a case – it appears to be more a function of the OD of the item that it is sized against, especially in a collet die. Can you shed some light on this, please? This may be because I am using the depriming pin/shaft – I think you have stated in the past that you have not. I have not been able to get low runouts and consistent neck ID's without it, even with neck turned brass. (with it I am usually at .002 runout, with a few .001).

-There are many variables that contribute to low velocity spreads – are you saying that your process of being as exact as possible with the neck ID is a major contributing factor? The only reason I am asking is because when I read all that you do to a case to get it where you want it I am left wondering – is this pin guage and the process here on this thread the thing that gets him those low spreads or is it just a piece of it. IOW, I want spreads that low, haven't seen you detail this process before and am wondering if the net gain is justifying the added cost/steps in your opinion.

Hey tlk, the question you are asking would make more sense if you are talking about a bushing die than the Lee Collet. For instance you say your mandrel is .3055" and can get the ID to .304" with varying the degree of effort on the press. This should not be possible. You should not be able to get a varying degree of ID regardless of the amount of force you apply, all you are doing is putting more stress on your die and press. IOW the Lee Collet mandrel is a certain specific diameter, you are not going to compress it smaller, so the ID which is pressed against that mandrel can not be smaller than the mandrel. After pressing the neck brass against the mandrel, if there is any springback, that springback would add to the ID of the neck. Now if you are taking the mandrel out of the Lee Collet and resizing I have no idea how small the collets would squeeze the neck since there would be no viable reason to do so.

And the case neck thickness has no bearing on ID when using a Lee Collet but it has everything to do with a bushing die used without an expander. That is the only time I have talked about removing the expander/depriming rod is with a bushing die. IMO that is good and the way to do it. It would make no sense to spend extra dollars to get an expensive die, buy the bushing to a specific size and then re-expand to another dimension. That is what a regular FL die does.

IMO consistant bullet release is one of the factors in low velocity spreads. How much is certainly debatable and results are not always consistant. IOW my velocity spreads have lessened across the board for all my loads but they are not always extremely low. There are other factors, some of them uncontrollable, that will all add in. Is it worth the extra time, effort and money? For me it is because I enjoy the results. Each has to make his own decision.

 

[tlk]

Woods, I KNOW!!! It is a ridiculous statement. It makes no sense, but I can do it. It was curious enough to me after a screw up to see if I could get some repeatability, and I could, with the madrel in. Repteatable enough that I maked the die with a pen to mark the settings so it does NOT happen anymore. I really dont know how it happens.

Thanks for the clarification on the mandrel - I thought you were taking it out of the Lee die as well. That was my bad in reading you posts about neck thickness and bullet grip and the math involved.

 

[woods]

How are you measuring the .304"? IOW, with a caliper, micrometer or pin gauges?

Theoretically there should be no reason to mark the Lee Collet Die. It should not matter whether the lock nut is at the top of the threads or it is at the bottom of it's adjustment range just before cam-over. If you are using the Lee Collet correctly what makes the die work is the approx. 25 pounds weight you put on the press handle. If you are camming the press over you are using the Lee Collet wrong.

I adjust the lock nut up to the top of the threads

this puts the press handle at it's most horizontal

and makes it easiest to gauge the amount of downward weight on the press handle.

Is this the way you have your die adjusted?

 

[tlk]

No, I have been using a very slight cam over. Let me try it how you have it set up.

 

[HunterGreen]

The way you control neck tension or bullet grip by sizing without the expander ball is to outside turn your neck thickness. For example, if you are sizing for a 30-06 and:

Your neck thickness is .014"
Your sizing die sizes the neck down to .330"
You want .002" bullet grip

then the math would be

caliber - bullet grip = desired ID of neck .......... .308" - .002" = .306"
die dimension - desired ID of neck = total brass thickness ........... .330" - .306" = .024"
total brass thickness / 2 = thickness each side ............. .024" / 2 = .012"

So if you outside neck turned your brass to .012" then you could size your brass without the expander ball and have .002" bullet grip .............. theoretically

I say theoretically because there are some other variables that will have some effect, namely springback which is a function of the softness or work hardening of your brass neck and how accurately you can outside neck turn to an exact .012".

If you really want to get exact then it helps to have an accurate way to gauge the ID of the neck. I use pin gauges

they measure to the .001" but you can tell additional information by how easily or difficult the pin gauge goes in.

IMO bullet grip is also affected by the condition of the inside of your neck. IOW any scratches, burrs, left over lube etc. will also affect bullet release and seating depth variances. To solve this problem I use scotchbrite and mica

I recently did a test where I size with 3 methods on 5 case each and gauged the resulting bullet grip.

Regular sizing die with expander ball
Bushing style Redding neck sizer
Lee Collet Neck Sizer

Using the pin gauges and to the best of my abilities, I came up with the following conclusions

The Lee Collet had the exact same ID throughout the 5 cases. IOW the same pin gauge went in with the exact same resistance.

The expander ball did almost as well using the same pin gauge but with varying resistance.

The bushing neck sizer varied between three pins with it tight on one side and loose on the other side of the center pin size. These case necks were outside neck turned to the best of my ability.

Lots of ways to skin this cat but doing it this way my velocity extreme spreads have mostly dropped to the single digits and my groups have shrunk at the longer distances.

YMMV

4 1/2 years later still post just hit my problem with a sledge hammer. Thanks for this post

 

[woods]

I was smarter back then!

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Woods & Huntergreen,

Thanks for this post/repost. It was recommended some time back that I neck turn and use the lee collet dies... which have given me god results. What I don't have are a set of pin gages. I'm not a machinist, so I'd never heard of them before, but I can see how handy it'd be to have a set. Really appreciate your good layout, images and description Woods, and that you posted it Hunter.

This is why I love longrangehunting... The best site ever for learning new tricks. Those pin gages will save me a lot of time checking necks.

Kudos!!!