The conversation taking place is exactly what Federal is hoping for. This will gain more and more interest and when people start to share their actual experiences, that will be the tell all. Until then, enjoy the Federal Viagra!
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How bad is the 7 backcountry?
- Thread starter Joefrazell
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bballard
Well-Known Member
So gaining roughly 100 to 150 fps is huge?
Axl
Well-Known Member
Federal has said the new alloy case design came from a D.O.D solicitation for bid. So The R&D was done and these are sunk costs. Weather or not it fails is not relevant. They had 2 choices. Put the idea on the shelf, and eat the R&D costs. Or take it to market and make some money today. So it was not a horrible idea, it was the only idea that made any sense at all.
Everyone with a keyboard thinks they can run a corporation. But in reality none have the skillset to do so.
What is comical, is the hate spewed at new products. At the start it's "it will fail". So what? Most new products do.
Then if it's successful there is more hate. Look at the 6.5 Creedmoor. The hatters vilify the marketing. Wait, what?? The same hatters that say something will fail, now direct their insecurities toward the marketing department. The one entity that is tasked with keeping a new product from failing!
I have to believe most of this vitriol comes from people that are insecure in their own success in life, and lash out at those that are successful.
Greatgrandad
Well-Known Member
The brass cartridge case has always been one of the greatest limiting factors to pressure and increased velocity, and while some advancement in some powders have help make minor velocity advancements, a case that allows greater improvements has always been desired.
About 40 or so years ago, Steel Head cases were designed and sold to handloaders to help achieve more speed with safety, but they had joint issues and never caught on with the vast majority and died off. Then, the 277 Fury hybrid case caught peoples attention, but it remains to be seen if it will succeed beyond the military applications.
Now, a new SS boron alloy case sparks possibilities that just may go beyond the problems with hybrids and may be the beginnings of a new era in case/shooting technology. Will it be like the introduction of smokeless powder in the BP age and all the controversy then? It remains to be seen.
edit: Just look at how many handloaders and members here are always pushing the very limits of their favorite cartridges and cases just to gain a little more speed and energy down range, and sometimes, at great risk to their firearms and self. Now, we may be able to make a 10-20k jump with much more safety.
About 40 or so years ago, Steel Head cases were designed and sold to handloaders to help achieve more speed with safety, but they had joint issues and never caught on with the vast majority and died off. Then, the 277 Fury hybrid case caught peoples attention, but it remains to be seen if it will succeed beyond the military applications.
Now, a new SS boron alloy case sparks possibilities that just may go beyond the problems with hybrids and may be the beginnings of a new era in case/shooting technology. Will it be like the introduction of smokeless powder in the BP age and all the controversy then? It remains to be seen.
edit: Just look at how many handloaders and members here are always pushing the very limits of their favorite cartridges and cases just to gain a little more speed and energy down range, and sometimes, at great risk to their firearms and self. Now, we may be able to make a 10-20k jump with much more safety.
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liber
Active Member
I've had a change of mind on this cartridge. I have a 10" Rem 700 blank that is 10" long. I can build a long action with that.
*IF* this cartridge can do what it says, specifically get the same velocity out of a 16" barrel as it does a 24", that in itself will be a huge plus for Hunting. In that regard, the name makes sense. But it doesn't seem like the Military is adopting this yet, so I have time to watch the market and see how this 7mm Backcountry picks up. The weight between a long and short action is not too much, and I think my actions are large enough that I could make a long action with minimal added weight.
I don't know if it would be the ultimate hunting rifle for me or not, but it possibly can. My current plan is to get a lightweight carbon short action stock for my 6.5 PRC, that will take all of the game I would encounter in Northern California. My A zone sells deer tags over the counter. I have deer, pig and bear at reasonable prices for the tags. Elk is a bit steep, about $550 if you can draw one. I have friends that have travelled to Idaho or Wyoming to do Elk hunts, but I don't plan to hunt out of state.
This cartridge has a lot of hurdles to jump over, mainly the nickel alloy cases, the pressures, the velocities in short barrels, et al. *IF* if can even make it over those hurdles will I consider it. On paper the numbers look good, although it doesn't seem as accurate as I would expect, it may need some time to get things up to 80,000 psi. That would be the last hurdle, but I want to see some of these folks reloading for this cartridge before ANYTHING. Federal did a massive push on this, and there's a question if they will follow up with the needed marketing to take over the private sector (i.e., non-military). There's a lot of IFs in this post, mainly because I don't see how anyone can decide on building for this cartridge until the verdict is out. Reloading those peak alloy cases is a hurdle in itself, but it seems that this peak alloy is supposed to be the new brass killer that won't stick to the chamber. Time will tell.
*IF* this cartridge can do what it says, specifically get the same velocity out of a 16" barrel as it does a 24", that in itself will be a huge plus for Hunting. In that regard, the name makes sense. But it doesn't seem like the Military is adopting this yet, so I have time to watch the market and see how this 7mm Backcountry picks up. The weight between a long and short action is not too much, and I think my actions are large enough that I could make a long action with minimal added weight.
I don't know if it would be the ultimate hunting rifle for me or not, but it possibly can. My current plan is to get a lightweight carbon short action stock for my 6.5 PRC, that will take all of the game I would encounter in Northern California. My A zone sells deer tags over the counter. I have deer, pig and bear at reasonable prices for the tags. Elk is a bit steep, about $550 if you can draw one. I have friends that have travelled to Idaho or Wyoming to do Elk hunts, but I don't plan to hunt out of state.
This cartridge has a lot of hurdles to jump over, mainly the nickel alloy cases, the pressures, the velocities in short barrels, et al. *IF* if can even make it over those hurdles will I consider it. On paper the numbers look good, although it doesn't seem as accurate as I would expect, it may need some time to get things up to 80,000 psi. That would be the last hurdle, but I want to see some of these folks reloading for this cartridge before ANYTHING. Federal did a massive push on this, and there's a question if they will follow up with the needed marketing to take over the private sector (i.e., non-military). There's a lot of IFs in this post, mainly because I don't see how anyone can decide on building for this cartridge until the verdict is out. Reloading those peak alloy cases is a hurdle in itself, but it seems that this peak alloy is supposed to be the new brass killer that won't stick to the chamber. Time will tell.
nksmfamjp
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2004
- Messages
- 3,550
Cost of tooling….
Everybody is going to need new tooling. I'm not just talking about case tooling or just Federal's tooling. I'm talking about bullet makers need new tooling. How many bullets are good to 3300fps? Rifle makers need new tooling. How can I put a rifle together to higher tolerances? What are the design and mfg specs to raise pressures? Need new test jig? Barrel makers may need new tooling. Can a barrel operate at these levels? Do I need 1.25" or larger blanks? Action makers need new tooling if not tooling, new cnc for the new design. Probably more time to cut, It is an investment nightmare. Basically, it means taking refined products and processes and going back to "what do we do next?" For what benefit?
The benefit I see is sell a bunch of new rifles that only run factory ammo which gives average performance. Think electronic primers….that went well.
This is not a 6.5 Creedmoor…..which should of launched 143's at 2850fps from 24"!!!
javman
Well-Known Member
So let's say this "new" case technology does well with the Backcountry round then Federal should consider making the rest of the main stream ammo with that technology and then they can squeeze the maximum speeds that a lot of people are chasing in hopefully a safe manner. In that case maybe they are on to something that could be a game changer!
fseaman.js
Well-Known Member
That would be nice.
UR Gavin proved that the limit with established technology is the brass. Primers do enter into it as thin cups create a weak point in the new pressure levels. ATM I forget but he switched primers in the 308 to something with a thicker cup.
Primer flow shows up at a little less than 80k PSI check at the 11:00 minute mark
Again the the fps gain isn't the fixation. It's the ability to do it with such a small case comparatively. You will be able to reach speeds unobtainable with that small case capacity in that short of a barrel. It's a pretty large advancement. Nobody has to like it but again it's never been done. This is not an argument you can win because you're arguing 2 different things
Will it be good? Will it last? Will it be repeatable? Is it safe in all rifles? Who knows? But it is something that stands to put all cartridges IN ITS SIZE class behind.
bballard
Well-Known Member
I'm not arguing anything....all I am saying is they need to come up with something that truly steps up and offers really significant gains over the current technology. From what I read it doesn't really do that at all. Maybe someday? Just don't repackage the wheel and tell me it's way better. Got to hand it to the marketing guys though.
Greatgrandad
Well-Known Member
??? When is the last time you, or anyone else, could "safely" and routinely fire a 280AI size brass case with a 170 grain bullet to 3,150 fps in a 24" or 3,000 fps in a 20" barrel. Given those are factory produced ballistics that must meet very stringent safety requirements, a reloader may be able to surpass even those numbers. Just as we often do with factory produced, brass cased ammo now.
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Hard H2O
Well-Known Member
The Vortex podcast had a recent episode of one of their "Lead Balloons". The subject was the .30 Remington AR.
It made me think about how many people purchased firearms in something that was going to be the latest and greatest only to have ammo fizzle out in a few years or so. Hopefully some of those can be retooled to something mor common or the owner has enough brass to reload or ammo to last them.
In my second job at an outdoor retailer in the Midwest I often encounter customers looking for ammo for obscure milsurp, stuff popular in Europe, old and "obsolete", uncommon in our region, and just plain oddball stuff. Sometimes I think some people are asking because they want to seem smarter than the average guy and they think owning a Mosin makes them cool or unique. Some people just check everytime they are in a shop because you never know. A lot of stuff we get so often. .257 Roberts, some of the Weatherby stuff, .35 Remington to name a few. Some stuff we get very rarely like the Mauser cartridges or .35 Remington. Others have pretty much passed into obscurity at a larger retailer like .32 Winchester Special.
For most of those uncommon rounds I always ask if they have thought of reloading for them. Seems most guys would rather have them sit in the gun cabinet than doing something to feed them. It makes me think that there is a reason a lot of those rounds are not as popular in my area. Perhaps for what we do in the Midwest and in the U.S. they do not do anything that a more popular round cannot.
I hope whomever is an early adopter of something like this stockpiles and learns to reload for it.
I am kind of cheap. I do not have firearms that do not fill a need for me. I do not just buy whatever is new just to play with it. Not sure, in my area, what this would do for me beyond what my .300 WSM, .243, .30-30, .30-06... can handle.
It made me think about how many people purchased firearms in something that was going to be the latest and greatest only to have ammo fizzle out in a few years or so. Hopefully some of those can be retooled to something mor common or the owner has enough brass to reload or ammo to last them.
In my second job at an outdoor retailer in the Midwest I often encounter customers looking for ammo for obscure milsurp, stuff popular in Europe, old and "obsolete", uncommon in our region, and just plain oddball stuff. Sometimes I think some people are asking because they want to seem smarter than the average guy and they think owning a Mosin makes them cool or unique. Some people just check everytime they are in a shop because you never know. A lot of stuff we get so often. .257 Roberts, some of the Weatherby stuff, .35 Remington to name a few. Some stuff we get very rarely like the Mauser cartridges or .35 Remington. Others have pretty much passed into obscurity at a larger retailer like .32 Winchester Special.
For most of those uncommon rounds I always ask if they have thought of reloading for them. Seems most guys would rather have them sit in the gun cabinet than doing something to feed them. It makes me think that there is a reason a lot of those rounds are not as popular in my area. Perhaps for what we do in the Midwest and in the U.S. they do not do anything that a more popular round cannot.
I hope whomever is an early adopter of something like this stockpiles and learns to reload for it.
I am kind of cheap. I do not have firearms that do not fill a need for me. I do not just buy whatever is new just to play with it. Not sure, in my area, what this would do for me beyond what my .300 WSM, .243, .30-30, .30-06... can handle.
Ua26fitter
Well-Known Member
Shoot2Hunt had a good podcast on this just the other day. They made some good points from research they did.
I'll wait and see but to start it's not accurate at all and reloading is not an option with RCBS saying it's taking 11 passes to resize the brass.
At 80k psi how many action, barrel and suppressor manufacturers are going to be cool with us giving their products the backcountry treatment.
I think this is just an attempt to recover cost from a failed attempt at the military conract that the .277 furry won.
I'll wait and see but to start it's not accurate at all and reloading is not an option with RCBS saying it's taking 11 passes to resize the brass.
At 80k psi how many action, barrel and suppressor manufacturers are going to be cool with us giving their products the backcountry treatment.
I think this is just an attempt to recover cost from a failed attempt at the military conract that the .277 furry won.
Greatgrandad
Well-Known Member
At last report, there are about 80 various firearms being or planning to be produced for the new cartridge. Even Federal's website shows many of the rifles and manufactures for it.
As for accuracy, the Outdoor Life article on the 7 BC produced very similar accuracy as a couple of other factory 7 mm's.
Reloading steel case cartridges are a little different than brass, and I have reloaded a fair amount of 223/5.56 and some 7.62 along with some 9mm and 45ACP steels. On rifle cases, I achieved my best result using a collet resizer that could be adjusted to achieve proper case neck tension. It should be no issue to use a bushing die with a proper bushing to single pass and size the neck.
