Homogenous copper bullets can be inhumane

[Petey308]

Interesting article and a bit contradictory of his cartridge research. Not sure why Foster published this. In every cartridge article I have read of his, he has nothing to say but praise for Barnes bullets. The only negative is if the velocity has dropped to below the velocities that even Barnes has indicated, then expansion is reduced, or non-existant.
Never read his reviews of any monolithics other than Barnes.
Cup and core bullets not designed for low velocity expansion can fail at long range as well.

Right, if you've read a lot of his other write-ups and books, you'd know his emphasis is on long range hunting and that means lower impact velocity shots. This article was written to educate the long range hunter on the factors and possibilities of using certain copper bullets at certain impact velocities and certain impact resistance.

He's said plenty about how copper bullets do indeed have their place and are good choices when you take everything into account and need what they provide versus certain cup and core bullets.

He's also said plenty about how there are several poor choices in cup and core bullets too. People read and conclude what they want to though, to include not reading everything and seeing the whole big picture.

 

[JDD]

I did have a lot of time to digest the entire article. What a self promoting ***. He got a hard on for the calf lead ban , making a very selective argument against copper using 223 for deer and total ignoring the long history of cheap cup and core lead bullets. The becomes a commercial for DRT. Fragmentation science Bullet technology. I
Not to keen on consuming meat seasoned with projectile dust!!!!. Then totally ignoring cooper bullets designed to shed petals and leave a core to penetrate. His so-called scientific article was a marketing ploy at best! .

I have experience in killing large plains game with barnes tsx in .375 and 416. Spring bok, was the only small animal then a red hartebeast. Blue and black wildebeest, 3 zebra,, kudo, eland, 3 gemsboc. My wife shot a 3006 with 200gr partions. The difference the 06 did a better job of shedding energy and the reaction to the shot was more evident. Death did not come any quicker. They laid ther and bleed out. We had to wait for the perfect broadside shot. On neither the zebra or the gemsboc did the partion shoot through.


With the bigger mags I took any shoot I wanted from any distance up to 450 yards. They either dropped to the shot or ran or in the case of the eland walked a short distance. They all expired quickly. All had exit wounds other than the eland and easy to follow blood trails.


A humane death is about shot placement, with a well constructed bullet that penetrates through the vitals and does so every time. With sufficient bore dia , bullet weight and energy level to insure bullet performance (ie expand or shed petals)


When it comes to potential dangerous game I am not sold on bullets designed to shed petals., I want to shoot through leaving large temporary wound channels.


Have Buffalo or moose or brown bear been harvested in close with such projectiles from different angles

 

[ButterBean]

Interesting article and a bit contradictory of his cartridge research. Not sure why Foster published this. In every cartridge article I have read of his, he has nothing to say but praise for Barnes bullets. The only negative is if the velocity has dropped to below the velocities that even Barnes has indicated, then expansion is reduced, or non-existant.
Never read his reviews of any monolithics other than Barnes.
Cup and core bullets not designed for low velocity expansion can fail at long range as well.

Foster goes both ways

 

[308plinkerVT]

Oh my. 10 pages in and I had to stop.
A 223... over 200... on a goat?

 

[Rich Coyle]

To be fair, the definition of expert is: "a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area".

So you don't have to know all there possibly is to know about something to be considered an expert, but I still tend to agree with you. I refrain from calling myself an expert on anything.

Mr. Foster's info reminds me of the folks who used to believe our bodies are filled with vestigial organs. It would do him good to check the newest monos.

 

[Hard rock]

Most of the time, they don't. Sierra makes their Gameking to shed weight on pass through. I've shot antelope with the 200 grain in an -06 at 200 plus yards and had tennis ball sized exit wounds from it. I've also shot deer at less than 30 yards and had three or four exit wounds, with massive internal damage. Some people call that bullet failure. I don't. Bullet failure is when it doesn't kill the animal, and I have to spend the next two hours trying to find it. Speer .30 cal and below are designed like the Sierra to make a very large wound channel in thin skinned game, and are extremely effective on deer and antelope, and with heavier grain weights, on elk. Since 'Ballistics Studies' is showing you real world results, and since he's either shot or guided people who've shot thousands of head of game, maybe you should listen and give him the benefit of the doubt. By the way, I use Sierras in my Whelen for deer, because the Speer 250 has too thick a jacket for good expansion inside 200 yards. The Sierra Gameking in 358 has the same jacket thickness as the Sierra 180 grain .308 gameking, and makes fist sized holes out to at least 450 yards, which was as far as I could shoot deer across a Kansas wheat field.

Sierra bullets failed me a long time ago and haven't shot them since . I'm know they are accurate and perform for the most part but are not forgiving in smaller cal such as 270 on a shoulder shot up close . I shot a buck with a 130 gr Game King and literally saw it blow up on the shoulder exposing the entire shoulder blade , if I wasn't able too make a quick followed up running shot it would have been a lost deer in the South Tex brush country . I now prefer a more forgiving bullet at the ranges I hunt . I've used many Barnes bullets ,but now use the Hammers I have no surprises with that bullet and know what too expect on a lung, heart or shoulder shot , the deer runs I still know he's a dead deer ,go find him he won't be far . Now too me that's a more forgiving and humane bullet

 

[xsn10s]

At the end of Foster's article he promotes not only the lead free dust particle bullets but also mono's that shed petals. So that favors Hammers and other mono's that do that. Beside Foster's and that other body of work are very old. Lot's has happened since they were published.

 

[xsn10s]

So after all the vitriol there really wasn't anything to get that worked up about.

 

[dougduey]

While I haven't gone through all 16 pages yet, and I'm not sure if this has been stated, so I'm going to put my 2 cents in here.
First off, I follow Nathan and own all his books on long range hunting and shooting. He's done extensive research on multiple bullets in a variety of cartridges and has some really great real world data. That being said, he hasn't tested everything. I will tell you he is a big fan of the Partition, ELDM and Sierra TMK. He hates Berger's with a passion and has even stated that he can't understand why anyone would shoot a "target type" bullet with a hollow point at game. He also doesn't like Barnes bullets and states that many times through his writings. The only all copper bullet he has used is called a DRT Bullet. I believe they are an Aussie company, and he has been in favor of them, but he hadn't done a ton of testing with them.
So, while I do respect Nathan and the work he has done, I believe his article is presumptive and doesn't take into consideration other copper bullets out there. This is truly a "blanket" statement by Nathan, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt.

 

[Rich Coyle]

I don't have anything against hammer bullets - why are you trying to get me to say bad things about them?

I too would like to read your results. Would it help if I ask with a "please"?

 

[FEENIX]

I too would like to read your results. Would it help if I ask with a "please"?

Brother, it is not going to happen.

 

[xsn10s]

I'll go on the record and say since IMO there was nothing to get all that mad about. Emotions got two members were kicked off. And I'll say for the record Len had just cause to do so. I'll also say for the record I find it a shame that because emotions got the best of people they are no longer are here. The boundaries of behavior have been set. The ramifications have been displayed. And for the record I'll advocate for re-instating both parties if they agree to follow the rules. If this is a problem Len I understand and support you either way. If posting this is a problem contact me and I'll delete and won't do it again in the future.

 

[Rich Coyle]

I think my bias is against the cultlike fanbase that continue to push low bc bullets on a longrange hunting site. No bias against the bullets themselves or the company who makes them. If all of my hunting was less than a few hundred yards they might be my huckleberry.

It seems you forgot "long range" is subjective. My longest shot on deer was 500 yards. Longest shot on elk was 400 yards. I heard Hammers are good to about 600 yards. That is a 25% increase in "long range" to me. I guess if I use Hammers I will be good to go for "long range".

 

[asd9055]

The main point to always remember, no matter what bullet you choose, there is an impact velocity window for that particular bullet for best performance. You need to make sure you are in that window. That is what my limited experience tought me.