High BC 375 Bullets
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davewilson
Well-Known Member
Trigger, i'd like to know who established that the j36's shot well in regular hunting guns. i've tried them and all i can say is i could shoot better groups at 100 yards shooting offhand with my muzzleloader. so i tried them in two other remingtons and a sako.the best 3 shot group was around 4" and the worst was a lot bigger.they're horrible in regular producton guns,your only chance that they "might" shoot is with affermarket barrels.
if these things shot as good or better than jacketed bullets, the 1k and 1 mile shooters would be using them to win.they don't care about legal hunting or even BC for that matter although it obviously comes into play.all they care about is groups on the paper. i've talked to at least a doz guys that have tried them and every one said they were the worst shooting bullet they ever shot.
don't mean to flame but i'm just heavily objecting to your accuracy claims of these bullets and have many who will agree with me on this one.
if these things shot as good or better than jacketed bullets, the 1k and 1 mile shooters would be using them to win.they don't care about legal hunting or even BC for that matter although it obviously comes into play.all they care about is groups on the paper. i've talked to at least a doz guys that have tried them and every one said they were the worst shooting bullet they ever shot.
don't mean to flame but i'm just heavily objecting to your accuracy claims of these bullets and have many who will agree with me on this one.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
A couple years ago when I was loading custom ammo for customers as well I had a guy bring in some 250 gr LRBT bullets and he wanted me to load them up in his 338 Lapua. This was a Sako TRG-S. First thing I found out was that they topped out in pressure long before a cup jacketed bullet would, not suprising and expected from the solid.
I would say velocity was on par with what I could get with a 250 gr Partition. Within 50 fps at least.
Thats as much good news as I have to offer about them. The customer brought 100 bullets and wanted me to develope a top velocity load.
I burned through half the bullets over four different powders and I would not even call what I saw anything remotely similiar to accuracy.
In fact, several groups would have shots missing from the target and I was using 9"x11" printed targets. I called up the customer and told him I was not going to waste any more of his money and my time on testing these bullets because they were a dead stick in this rifle.
I asked him if he wanted me to try the 300 gr SMK which I had originally recommended to him. He agreed and I loaded up 15 rounds with 93.0 gr Retumbo over a Fed-215 primer and seated them to 3.650" which is a pretty generic load.
Averaged only 2640 fps but at 100 yards it averaged in the .3"s for five three shot groups and at 500 yards it averaged 1.8" for three, 3 shot groups.
That was my one and only hands on experience with the LRBT and I believe it will be the last.
Like Dave, I have talked to many guys out there that have used these bullets and I have yet to hear of them shooting even remotely well in a factory rifle compared to a conventional cup jacketed bullet. It may well happen but I have not seen or heard of it to be honest.
It just seems you are very aggressive in promoting these bullets. This is not a bad thing but when there is so much hard data out there against your claims of accuracy potential it just seems odd that you would be pushing so hard.
Maybe its the lack of any other HIGH BC bullet in 375 cal that has you fired up.
Again, I am not saying in a specially designed rifle they will not shoot very well. That is a proven fact, still they cost to much and over a wide array of rifles do not live up to accuracy specs.
TO those that feel the price of bullets is a small price to pay, consider most of us here shoot all year round so at $2 per bullet, that would add up to more then the cost of the rifle in just a couple seasons of shooting.
For my money I will use Wildcat Bullets or Sierra MKs when a Wildcat is not available.
Call me a traditionalist but I do not want my big game bullets to tumble, I want them to expand, mushroom and drill a big hole on the same track that they hit the animal to!!
When Sierra comes out with their 375 SMK, my ears will perk up about this caliber and hopefully we can talk Richard into building some heavy 375 bullets.
No flame intended in any way, you just have alot of real world experience stacked up against you if you want to convince alot of us that these are fine shooting bullets. They look cool as hell for sure, but so does a bullet splatting steel at 1500 yards, for that I have no desire to use these bullets.
Kirby Allen(50)
I would say velocity was on par with what I could get with a 250 gr Partition. Within 50 fps at least.
Thats as much good news as I have to offer about them. The customer brought 100 bullets and wanted me to develope a top velocity load.
I burned through half the bullets over four different powders and I would not even call what I saw anything remotely similiar to accuracy.
In fact, several groups would have shots missing from the target and I was using 9"x11" printed targets. I called up the customer and told him I was not going to waste any more of his money and my time on testing these bullets because they were a dead stick in this rifle.
I asked him if he wanted me to try the 300 gr SMK which I had originally recommended to him. He agreed and I loaded up 15 rounds with 93.0 gr Retumbo over a Fed-215 primer and seated them to 3.650" which is a pretty generic load.
Averaged only 2640 fps but at 100 yards it averaged in the .3"s for five three shot groups and at 500 yards it averaged 1.8" for three, 3 shot groups.
That was my one and only hands on experience with the LRBT and I believe it will be the last.
Like Dave, I have talked to many guys out there that have used these bullets and I have yet to hear of them shooting even remotely well in a factory rifle compared to a conventional cup jacketed bullet. It may well happen but I have not seen or heard of it to be honest.
It just seems you are very aggressive in promoting these bullets. This is not a bad thing but when there is so much hard data out there against your claims of accuracy potential it just seems odd that you would be pushing so hard.
Maybe its the lack of any other HIGH BC bullet in 375 cal that has you fired up.
Again, I am not saying in a specially designed rifle they will not shoot very well. That is a proven fact, still they cost to much and over a wide array of rifles do not live up to accuracy specs.
TO those that feel the price of bullets is a small price to pay, consider most of us here shoot all year round so at $2 per bullet, that would add up to more then the cost of the rifle in just a couple seasons of shooting.
For my money I will use Wildcat Bullets or Sierra MKs when a Wildcat is not available.
Call me a traditionalist but I do not want my big game bullets to tumble, I want them to expand, mushroom and drill a big hole on the same track that they hit the animal to!!
When Sierra comes out with their 375 SMK, my ears will perk up about this caliber and hopefully we can talk Richard into building some heavy 375 bullets.
No flame intended in any way, you just have alot of real world experience stacked up against you if you want to convince alot of us that these are fine shooting bullets. They look cool as hell for sure, but so does a bullet splatting steel at 1500 yards, for that I have no desire to use these bullets.
Kirby Allen(50)
Jimm
Well-Known Member
Mr. Triggerfifty ,
I would appreciate it if you would give me some links to the folks shooting the LRB bullets with such accuracy .
My apologies for not accepting what you have stated without questioning the content , it is not my intent to offend you either.
All that being said I have to say that LRB bullets have the worst rep on the web of any bullet I know of . Yes , I realize the web is full of undesirable material ( read crap ) as well as solid info . Even so the concensus is most always closer to the truth . There are many other sniping ops web sites out there . I wonder what the concensus would be if all were polled ?
One other aspect of this thread is the veiled references to your involvement with / or presence at ballistic testing that is beyond the general public ( was it Yuma I'm remembering here ? ) as well as having a rich background in this arena ( I refer to long range shooting whether it be sniping or hunting ). Is there some reason a person of your exposure can not reveal and qualify your expertise in a more substantial manner ? I ask realizing that there may very well be such a reason yet you have actually placed your identity at risk simply by posting here.
Please understand this , this website is full of shooters seeking the "current best " as far as long range shooting goes . It is also full of solid individuals that shoot straight in more ways than one ( that was for you Bulletsmith /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) That is to say , they aren't putting out any bs and they don't want any either .
If there is any problem in your mind regarding this tack consider this , every few months we see someone come here looking to scam or whatever.
I hope your data is real and we can move further along the quest for putting a small piece of copper/whatever where we want it at ranges that would have us certified as mental incompetents just 100 years ago .
Show me what you got and if I am in the wrong you can sentence me to 30 days in the lectric chair /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif or at the very least I will have to shoot LRB bullets till the Lord comes again . /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Jim B.
I would appreciate it if you would give me some links to the folks shooting the LRB bullets with such accuracy .
My apologies for not accepting what you have stated without questioning the content , it is not my intent to offend you either.
All that being said I have to say that LRB bullets have the worst rep on the web of any bullet I know of . Yes , I realize the web is full of undesirable material ( read crap ) as well as solid info . Even so the concensus is most always closer to the truth . There are many other sniping ops web sites out there . I wonder what the concensus would be if all were polled ?
One other aspect of this thread is the veiled references to your involvement with / or presence at ballistic testing that is beyond the general public ( was it Yuma I'm remembering here ? ) as well as having a rich background in this arena ( I refer to long range shooting whether it be sniping or hunting ). Is there some reason a person of your exposure can not reveal and qualify your expertise in a more substantial manner ? I ask realizing that there may very well be such a reason yet you have actually placed your identity at risk simply by posting here.
Please understand this , this website is full of shooters seeking the "current best " as far as long range shooting goes . It is also full of solid individuals that shoot straight in more ways than one ( that was for you Bulletsmith /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) That is to say , they aren't putting out any bs and they don't want any either .
If there is any problem in your mind regarding this tack consider this , every few months we see someone come here looking to scam or whatever.
I hope your data is real and we can move further along the quest for putting a small piece of copper/whatever where we want it at ranges that would have us certified as mental incompetents just 100 years ago .
Show me what you got and if I am in the wrong you can sentence me to 30 days in the lectric chair /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif or at the very least I will have to shoot LRB bullets till the Lord comes again . /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Jim B.
Id hate to say it i was looking at trying some LRB bullets and have seen what has happened with others trying them in standard aftermarket barrels. One shooter was using a 308 at 1000 yards with the LRB bullets it was a 10 twist and he was spraying the 8' X6' target with lots of misses. He came out stating how good these were and the BC was so high that no one would come close to catching him needless to say he went home with his tail between his legs. I have also never seen one used in competative 1000 Benchrest. Now this is the holy grail of 1000 yard shooting the current 1000 yard 10 shot reccord is under 2" i dont think the LRB bullets could even come close. I have shot 4 shots under 3" with 107gr Sierra's and a 6mm Dasher a 4 shot group meens nothing as the 5th shot opened the group to just under 6" and also the rifles must be under 17 pounds to be used for reccords in light gun with muzzle breaks allower as long as they do not discharge backwards. I can exuil your 4 shot groups with a 6mm Dasher and 107gr Sierra's that does not make them awsome just expensive and suited to a special barrel only with the situation limiting you to 1 projectile only that shoots ok at best. As said earlier if they were the most accurate projectile 1000 yard shooters Would be using them but they are not adn cost is not an issue to the top 1000 yard shooters as they only shoot a maximum of 30 shots in a day they will use anything that gives them an advantage the LRB bullets that have been tried have ALL been a failure in that form of competition.
Now for military shooting the solid projectiles do have an advantage as they penetrate soft targets well and if you hit the target that is all that is required. The whole system that makes the Chey Tac so valuble is the handheld computer system if you used it with a 338 Lapua and a 300gr Sierra you would get the same results.
Cheers Bill
Australia
Now for military shooting the solid projectiles do have an advantage as they penetrate soft targets well and if you hit the target that is all that is required. The whole system that makes the Chey Tac so valuble is the handheld computer system if you used it with a 338 Lapua and a 300gr Sierra you would get the same results.
Cheers Bill
Australia
lerch
<strong>SPONSOR</strong>
Thanks for the additional info.
I will admit that that my info is based completly on what i have gathered from what others have said. Now this is not the best way to form a opinion but I think it is why the majority of us participate in this website. We all share knowledge and this helps us to not waste money in useless ventures and guides us to pushing the envelope farther. These bullets definantly push the envelope but from what I have heard they are not accurate in most rifles. You say they shoot good in factory guns with loose bores but many of us here shot custom guns that are designed to provide the up most accuracy at long range and these tighter bores eliminate the accuracy of these bullets, as you have said. Now this doesnt eliminate these bullets from use since many of us have found factory guns that have shown amazing accuracy, Rem and Savage rifles. But even in these guns the accuracy of these bullets has come into question. Now the price of these suckers is astounding and that further pushes them to the side. I make decent money and I spend a got lot of it on a crazy SOB north of me designing envelope pushing guns and I completely trust his opinion. I rely on another crazy SOB to build bullets for me for these guns and i pay a decent price for them. With all of this I cannot justify paying the price for these bullets, especially with the info on them I have recieved from others. You have shown **** nice results with these suckers and I congratulate you on your great shooting. There is just too much evidence pointing the other way for me to justify shooting them, along with the fact they cant be used on game in several states. And even if this werent true I would still never depend on a bullet to tumble through game to provide its killing power. I want expansion, bullet wieght retention, and energy deposting to do the job for me. This is a lot to ask from a bullet and so far only Wildcat bullets and accubonds have shown me the results on large game. I will try anything that is offered but the pricing of LRB bullets is BS to me, and to me that is what is ignorant.
I am not sure what bullets from LRB are illegal for hunting in some states, this is ignorant on my part and I am sorry. To be honest my interest in these bullets stopped over a year ago when I saw the pricing.
You have shown and claimed great accuracy with these bullets and I congratulate you for it. In a month or so I will have a rifle that will be in the same race as the guns you are shooting and I am planning on showing similar results with 300gr SMK's until Richard Graves can make me something heavier. I am not trying to flame you I just dont see where these bullets have screamed past anything else that is offered for a substantially less price.
I am still waiting for your response on a different post about 2 identical bullets differing in thier super sonic transition and this is of no ill will against you, just wanting you to justify what you have said.
Again PLEASE dont take this as a flame on you, i dont mean it that way. YOu are pushing the envelope like many of us here are and we are all trying to gather info to help us in our journey. IF this sport could **** me off anymore at times I would just stop and go back to bow hunting all the time, it is the sharing of info here that has pulled me back into it and I thank everyone here for it.
take it easy
steve
I will admit that that my info is based completly on what i have gathered from what others have said. Now this is not the best way to form a opinion but I think it is why the majority of us participate in this website. We all share knowledge and this helps us to not waste money in useless ventures and guides us to pushing the envelope farther. These bullets definantly push the envelope but from what I have heard they are not accurate in most rifles. You say they shoot good in factory guns with loose bores but many of us here shot custom guns that are designed to provide the up most accuracy at long range and these tighter bores eliminate the accuracy of these bullets, as you have said. Now this doesnt eliminate these bullets from use since many of us have found factory guns that have shown amazing accuracy, Rem and Savage rifles. But even in these guns the accuracy of these bullets has come into question. Now the price of these suckers is astounding and that further pushes them to the side. I make decent money and I spend a got lot of it on a crazy SOB north of me designing envelope pushing guns and I completely trust his opinion. I rely on another crazy SOB to build bullets for me for these guns and i pay a decent price for them. With all of this I cannot justify paying the price for these bullets, especially with the info on them I have recieved from others. You have shown **** nice results with these suckers and I congratulate you on your great shooting. There is just too much evidence pointing the other way for me to justify shooting them, along with the fact they cant be used on game in several states. And even if this werent true I would still never depend on a bullet to tumble through game to provide its killing power. I want expansion, bullet wieght retention, and energy deposting to do the job for me. This is a lot to ask from a bullet and so far only Wildcat bullets and accubonds have shown me the results on large game. I will try anything that is offered but the pricing of LRB bullets is BS to me, and to me that is what is ignorant.
I am not sure what bullets from LRB are illegal for hunting in some states, this is ignorant on my part and I am sorry. To be honest my interest in these bullets stopped over a year ago when I saw the pricing.
You have shown and claimed great accuracy with these bullets and I congratulate you for it. In a month or so I will have a rifle that will be in the same race as the guns you are shooting and I am planning on showing similar results with 300gr SMK's until Richard Graves can make me something heavier. I am not trying to flame you I just dont see where these bullets have screamed past anything else that is offered for a substantially less price.
I am still waiting for your response on a different post about 2 identical bullets differing in thier super sonic transition and this is of no ill will against you, just wanting you to justify what you have said.
Again PLEASE dont take this as a flame on you, i dont mean it that way. YOu are pushing the envelope like many of us here are and we are all trying to gather info to help us in our journey. IF this sport could **** me off anymore at times I would just stop and go back to bow hunting all the time, it is the sharing of info here that has pulled me back into it and I thank everyone here for it.
take it easy
steve
[ QUOTE ]
The LRBT J36 hunting bullets shoot very well in conventional (remington, etc.) rifles BECAUSE they don't use tight bores and group very well out of them. This was established years ago. Is your opinion based on experience, or just a feeling?
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with steve about not being able to get them to shoot.
I have tried the J36's in several 243's, 7mm's( 7wsm 7 rm 7stw) and 30cal(300wsm 300wm) guns to know that they are a wast of time if you dont have a special bore.
Also I am not going to spend my money on a special bored barrel to try and get the LRB bullets to shoot. What if they dont? then you have a worthless barrel that wont shoot conventional bullets as well as guilded metal bullets
d-a
The LRBT J36 hunting bullets shoot very well in conventional (remington, etc.) rifles BECAUSE they don't use tight bores and group very well out of them. This was established years ago. Is your opinion based on experience, or just a feeling?
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with steve about not being able to get them to shoot.
I have tried the J36's in several 243's, 7mm's( 7wsm 7 rm 7stw) and 30cal(300wsm 300wm) guns to know that they are a wast of time if you dont have a special bore.
Also I am not going to spend my money on a special bored barrel to try and get the LRB bullets to shoot. What if they dont? then you have a worthless barrel that wont shoot conventional bullets as well as guilded metal bullets
d-a
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
D-A,
I am not supporting the LRBT bullets in any way but instead the barrels that shoot them. I have had several conversations with Barney Lawton who is making the barreled receivers for Chey Tac and from what I understand from him, the "Chey Tac" barrels are not dramatically different then a conventional barrel.
The bores may be slightly different diameter but if you look at the range of bore diameters from different barrel makers, its us a drastic variation. Thing is with a cup jacketed bullet, most bore diameters will shoot very well if the other aspects of the barrel are correct.
From what I understand from Barney Lawton, the "special" chey tac barrels do not have an unusual bore diameter, just a specific bore diameter designed for these bullets specifically.
The other difference is that they have 8 lands and grooves instead of a more conventional 6 groove design.
Also, the grooves are shallower then a conventional rifling design. Again, this is because they are designed for the solid bullets and this reduces engraving pressure dramatically with these solid bullets.
In testing my 7mm AM with several different barrels with a wide range of rifling designs, I believe that the Lawton "Chey Tac" barrel design would be very successful using heavy for caliber, thin jacketed bullets driven to high velocity. Sadly, the smallest caliber offered is either 30 or 338, can not remember off the top of my head.
The benefits of this barrel design should also work just as well on thin jacketed bullets such as the 200 gr ULD RBBT which is based on the J-4 jacket.
So I would not say that you would be stuck using only one bullet. These barrels should work very well with all conventional bullets. Its not a problem of the barrel being so dramatically differnet that you can not use any other conventional bullets. The problem is the LRBT bullets themselves.
I will be ordering in one of Barneys 338 barrels here in the next couple months to test with my 300 AM and prove this theory of mine that the Chey Tac barrels have more uses then just shooting LRBT bullets. We will see how things play out, hope it works /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!!
Just wanted to point out though that from what I understand, these are not "only one bullet barrels".
These bullets ARE a "one barrel bullet" though!!
Clear as MUD!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Kirby Allen(50)
I am not supporting the LRBT bullets in any way but instead the barrels that shoot them. I have had several conversations with Barney Lawton who is making the barreled receivers for Chey Tac and from what I understand from him, the "Chey Tac" barrels are not dramatically different then a conventional barrel.
The bores may be slightly different diameter but if you look at the range of bore diameters from different barrel makers, its us a drastic variation. Thing is with a cup jacketed bullet, most bore diameters will shoot very well if the other aspects of the barrel are correct.
From what I understand from Barney Lawton, the "special" chey tac barrels do not have an unusual bore diameter, just a specific bore diameter designed for these bullets specifically.
The other difference is that they have 8 lands and grooves instead of a more conventional 6 groove design.
Also, the grooves are shallower then a conventional rifling design. Again, this is because they are designed for the solid bullets and this reduces engraving pressure dramatically with these solid bullets.
In testing my 7mm AM with several different barrels with a wide range of rifling designs, I believe that the Lawton "Chey Tac" barrel design would be very successful using heavy for caliber, thin jacketed bullets driven to high velocity. Sadly, the smallest caliber offered is either 30 or 338, can not remember off the top of my head.
The benefits of this barrel design should also work just as well on thin jacketed bullets such as the 200 gr ULD RBBT which is based on the J-4 jacket.
So I would not say that you would be stuck using only one bullet. These barrels should work very well with all conventional bullets. Its not a problem of the barrel being so dramatically differnet that you can not use any other conventional bullets. The problem is the LRBT bullets themselves.
I will be ordering in one of Barneys 338 barrels here in the next couple months to test with my 300 AM and prove this theory of mine that the Chey Tac barrels have more uses then just shooting LRBT bullets. We will see how things play out, hope it works /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!!
Just wanted to point out though that from what I understand, these are not "only one bullet barrels".
These bullets ARE a "one barrel bullet" though!!
Clear as MUD!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Kirby Allen(50)
Black Diamond 408
Well-Known Member
I did a double check this morning on my 338 Lawton bbl on my Snipe-tac rifle, it has the std 6 rifling. Bore dia .3295 i was all giggly when i got my 250grn LRB bullets, until i shot them. I tried everything, even called Lost River asking for advise. They gave me a seating depth of .030 off the lands. That was the best groups i got, 2.5" at 100yds. 1000yds, couldnt hit the 24" gong. Three different powders later and finally the bullets ran out. The 300mk and 250mk bullets with any powder i have used will go from one hole groups to all touching at 100yds. 1000yds, 5" groups. This was my second experience with LRB bullets, not counting the 408cals. 408's do what they are supose to, but not match quality results.
davewilson
Well-Known Member
since we've drifted here a bit, could i ask what the preferred twist rate would be for the long 375 bullets? i would assume the rate for those LRB's would be as quick as one would need. what rate are you using in that 375/408?
Black Diamond 408
Well-Known Member
Barney told me the 11.5" twist for the 375 bbl with the LRB bullet.
