Marine sniper
Well-Known Member
I spent 7 years in the Marine Corps, and I know what you mean about it being difficult to get things done, but if we did not try nothing would ever get changed and the snipers would still have M-1's
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Help the Marine Corps decide on a new caliber for their sniper rifles
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I spent 7 years in the Marine Corps, and I know what you mean about it being difficult to get things done, but if we did not try nothing would ever get changed and the snipers would still have M-1's
I know this has been said one way or another before but I will say it again.
Get our men and women in our armed forces whatever they need to keep themselves as safe as possible. They should have all the tools(guns & whatever) they need to get the job done so they can come home. Don't waste but at the same time don't spare any expense.
Get our men and women in our armed forces whatever they need to keep themselves as safe as possible. They should have all the tools(guns & whatever) they need to get the job done so they can come home. Don't waste but at the same time don't spare any expense.
Mysticplayer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2001
- Messages
- 1,459
I think we all understand the issues of delay and capital hill/pentagon paper shufflers.
However, the question that started this post is valid. The process to get anything new takes ALOT of time. Got to start the clock somehow.
Worse would be to wait only to have the WRONG platform in play. Think Vietnam era M16....Oooops!
How about the revelation of using a piston recoil system? Only 45yrs in the making.
Input from those in the field as well as independents can help move the ship in better directions. Look at the switch to optics and semi auto sniper rifles. Only been recent that any optics was allowed. Now they are becoming SOP and that will drive development of better products.
So blog away...get feedback to those that can make things happen. Post concerns and solutions. I bet there are some very interested parties studying info on the net for suggestions for all manner of solutions.
It might just get soldiers some better gear.
Jerry
However, the question that started this post is valid. The process to get anything new takes ALOT of time. Got to start the clock somehow.
Worse would be to wait only to have the WRONG platform in play. Think Vietnam era M16....Oooops!
How about the revelation of using a piston recoil system? Only 45yrs in the making.
Input from those in the field as well as independents can help move the ship in better directions. Look at the switch to optics and semi auto sniper rifles. Only been recent that any optics was allowed. Now they are becoming SOP and that will drive development of better products.
So blog away...get feedback to those that can make things happen. Post concerns and solutions. I bet there are some very interested parties studying info on the net for suggestions for all manner of solutions.
It might just get soldiers some better gear.
Jerry
BHP9
Well-Known Member
Jerry, you are right when you say the soldier has to start the process of change, but there lies the rub, for the most part they do BUT it the ID10T's above them that are the porblem. They don't understand the problem or most often are indifferent to it.
It's the same in the Canadian Armed Forces too. I see it all to frequently today, as I did 35 years ago when I was a soldier.
It's the same in the Canadian Armed Forces too. I see it all to frequently today, as I did 35 years ago when I was a soldier.
usmc sniper rifle
being a retired Marine and having gone through school at camp lejeune in the early 80's we voiced the same concern then. i now have built my own and would suggest either 300wsm or the 300 ultra but thats just me . i have gotten 14 inch groups at 1000 with my ultra and custom ammo. but i got out of the 308/ 30 06 because of distance
semper fi
being a retired Marine and having gone through school at camp lejeune in the early 80's we voiced the same concern then. i now have built my own and would suggest either 300wsm or the 300 ultra but thats just me . i have gotten 14 inch groups at 1000 with my ultra and custom ammo. but i got out of the 308/ 30 06 because of distance
semper fi
logistics
Hi The logistics in a change are huge. I still think on practicality and costs a 7mm Rem SAUM would be best with 175gr Sierra MatchKings loaded with H1000. Remington could set up to load tomorrow with a military headstamp.
The rifles will need to be multi platform eith semi auto or bolt gun. The existing rifles in service as sniper rifles can be converted this reduces cross training on the new systems. An AR10 would be my first choice for the semi auto but a M14 could be converted as M1 Garands have been chambered in 458 Win Mag.
As for bolt guns rebarrel the Rem 700's or just get barreled actions and sell off the 308 barreled actions or use them as backups for training. The cost of rebarreling and bolt mods it would likley be similar in costs for barreled actions.
The 7mm will be supersonic to 1500 yards shoot a lot flatter than a 30 cal short mag the 30 is a disadvanatge.
With Sniper training here you are tought to NEVER leave cases behind especially in a sniper role to engage a target and leave unsean. Also the 308 cans would work. The recoil is not much more than the 308 my model7 in 7mm SAUM has less recoil than an identical 308.
Semi auto's have their place for multiple shots from fixed positions or hard targets.
Just what I believe to be most practicle.
As for a middle calibre between the 50cal and 7mm SAUM the 338 Edje would be great and even better would be droping the 50 bolt gun for a 375 CheyTac the semis in 50 are good for some purposes but a 375 CheyTac would be far superior to a 50 bolt gun with API or solid copper projectiles.
Cheers Bill
Australia
Hi The logistics in a change are huge. I still think on practicality and costs a 7mm Rem SAUM would be best with 175gr Sierra MatchKings loaded with H1000. Remington could set up to load tomorrow with a military headstamp.
The rifles will need to be multi platform eith semi auto or bolt gun. The existing rifles in service as sniper rifles can be converted this reduces cross training on the new systems. An AR10 would be my first choice for the semi auto but a M14 could be converted as M1 Garands have been chambered in 458 Win Mag.
As for bolt guns rebarrel the Rem 700's or just get barreled actions and sell off the 308 barreled actions or use them as backups for training. The cost of rebarreling and bolt mods it would likley be similar in costs for barreled actions.
The 7mm will be supersonic to 1500 yards shoot a lot flatter than a 30 cal short mag the 30 is a disadvanatge.
With Sniper training here you are tought to NEVER leave cases behind especially in a sniper role to engage a target and leave unsean. Also the 308 cans would work. The recoil is not much more than the 308 my model7 in 7mm SAUM has less recoil than an identical 308.
Semi auto's have their place for multiple shots from fixed positions or hard targets.
Just what I believe to be most practicle.
As for a middle calibre between the 50cal and 7mm SAUM the 338 Edje would be great and even better would be droping the 50 bolt gun for a 375 CheyTac the semis in 50 are good for some purposes but a 375 CheyTac would be far superior to a 50 bolt gun with API or solid copper projectiles.
Cheers Bill
Australia
I'm sure that you a quite the pro at punching little holes in paper at any distance that your heart desires, but I believe the topic concerns lethality issues on a two way shooting range.
Strick9
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
- Messages
- 390
I also agree give them what they need..they know best..but what irks me , itches my arse, causes me to curse is that no matter where you look be it the military or big business ..those at the top know nothing of the bottom..Man it drives me crazy..It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever 
JARHEAD1371
Well-Known Member
I realize that this thread is a few years old, but I can't resist the urge to reply. I didn't read every page so if this was covered I apologize for wasting your time. In my opinion (personal and professional) one rifle for all missions is not the best way to go. Most situations dictate the need for at least 3 different operational platforms, depending on the mission and/or target.
When operating as part of a squad or attached to a platoon, in an urban environment, most sniper shots will be under 500 yards and the opportunity for multiple targets is very possible. For this mission I would choose to employ a flat topped AR10 type weapon chambered in 7mm SAUM (or even 7-08) and pushing the 162 gr A-Max or SMK through a 26" barrel. I would top off the rifle with a 3.5-10x40mm Mark4 scope (or one like it).
I did not choose the VLD type bullets because they are too sensitive in
terms of seating distance from the lands. When fighting in relative close proximity with the enemy, things can get rough. Besides, Marines aren't known for being delicate with any type of gear (we leave that to the Air Force).
When operating in pairs, or when attached, and targets are expected to be at further distances and a single exposed target is the objective, I would choose a rifle like the Surgeon Scalpel. It would be chambered in 7mm SAUM, pushing a VLD style 180 gr bullet through a 28" barrel, and topped off with a 4.5-14x50mm Mark 4 type scope.
I picked the Surgeon rifle because the Surgeon action is a much better "twin" to the 700. The action has a intergrated recoil lug (extra threading for a stiffer barrel) and intergrated picatinny rail (increased strength, stiffness, and no screws to come loose or break). This type of mission is better suited for care of the ammo and the increased BC of the VLD bullets. This rilfe would not be the only weapon carried by the sniper on this mission.
When the target is at greater distances or is protected by some type of minor obstruction (vehicle door, body armor, or another person) I would choose the Surgeon Remedy rilfe chambered in .338 Lapua or .388 Edge. It would have a 30" barrel, push 300 gr SMK (or similar bullet), and top it off with a 6.5-20x 50mm Mark 4 type scope.
lightbulbOne important thing that most people don't think about is the report of the rifle. I'll spare you the long version, but basically the loulder the report of the rifle (.338's and bigger) the easier it is for the enemy to determine the origin of the shot, especially under 1000 yards. This may not be important, until they blanket the area with mortar rounds or send a platoon to take out you and your spotter.
All of this is assuming that I would be paying for each rifle. If the "powers that be" would pick up the bill I would probabily only change the optics.
I would be hard pressed to pick just one rifle for all applications, each mission dictates what weapons are need. Hope I didn't bore you too much.
Semper Fi gun)
When operating as part of a squad or attached to a platoon, in an urban environment, most sniper shots will be under 500 yards and the opportunity for multiple targets is very possible. For this mission I would choose to employ a flat topped AR10 type weapon chambered in 7mm SAUM (or even 7-08) and pushing the 162 gr A-Max or SMK through a 26" barrel. I would top off the rifle with a 3.5-10x40mm Mark4 scope (or one like it).
I did not choose the VLD type bullets because they are too sensitive in
terms of seating distance from the lands. When fighting in relative close proximity with the enemy, things can get rough. Besides, Marines aren't known for being delicate with any type of gear (we leave that to the Air Force).
When operating in pairs, or when attached, and targets are expected to be at further distances and a single exposed target is the objective, I would choose a rifle like the Surgeon Scalpel. It would be chambered in 7mm SAUM, pushing a VLD style 180 gr bullet through a 28" barrel, and topped off with a 4.5-14x50mm Mark 4 type scope.
I picked the Surgeon rifle because the Surgeon action is a much better "twin" to the 700. The action has a intergrated recoil lug (extra threading for a stiffer barrel) and intergrated picatinny rail (increased strength, stiffness, and no screws to come loose or break). This type of mission is better suited for care of the ammo and the increased BC of the VLD bullets. This rilfe would not be the only weapon carried by the sniper on this mission.
When the target is at greater distances or is protected by some type of minor obstruction (vehicle door, body armor, or another person) I would choose the Surgeon Remedy rilfe chambered in .338 Lapua or .388 Edge. It would have a 30" barrel, push 300 gr SMK (or similar bullet), and top it off with a 6.5-20x 50mm Mark 4 type scope.
lightbulbOne important thing that most people don't think about is the report of the rifle. I'll spare you the long version, but basically the loulder the report of the rifle (.338's and bigger) the easier it is for the enemy to determine the origin of the shot, especially under 1000 yards. This may not be important, until they blanket the area with mortar rounds or send a platoon to take out you and your spotter.
All of this is assuming that I would be paying for each rifle. If the "powers that be" would pick up the bill I would probabily only change the optics.
I would be hard pressed to pick just one rifle for all applications, each mission dictates what weapons are need. Hope I didn't bore you too much.
Semper Fi gun)
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
Keep the 308, add 2" of barrel and loose the 175 SMK.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Keep the .308... loose the Win... add the WSM... add 2" of barrel... loose the 175 SMK (BC .49)... add a 195 gr monometal, BC of .66 @ an MV of 3200 fps. It will reach 1500 yds with a vel of 1400 fps and KE of 850 and it would stay supersonic out to 2K.
No offense, but in all seriousness, what the 308 Win can do, the WSM can do better.
Now, if we look at Brian Litz' article... "What's wrong with the 30 cal?", there is a strong argument for going with a smaller cal, like the 7mm.
IMO, a high BC 7mm monometal bullet, with driving bands for increased velocity and longer barrel life, delivered from a WSM, Dakota or RUM would be a great sniper round.
I think the best candidates are...
300 WSM
300 Dakota
300 RUM
7mm WSM
7mm Dakota
7mm RUM
Each has it's advantages and disadvantages, so the requirements need to be well defined to find the one that best fits the bill. I lean to the WSM's which would be more mobile, with longer barrel life.
I left out the 338's, for two reasons...
Excessive recoil and weight of ammo. The 300 and 7mm RUM would stretch these limits also, but IMO not overly. The 338's could however be used in special circumstances when needed.
-MR
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Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
You will get no argument from me about the wsm doing everything better. One thought is that a couple of the reasons the military adopted the 308 was ammo weight and recoil.
If those are still requirments then there is nothing wrong with what they are using now. Add a couple inches of barrel throw in the 190 grain bullet and in standard air youre subsonic to 1300+ yards. There is more to a sniper's weapon than windage.
Now if they want to increase ammo weight and recoil then by golly do it right. 338 LM.
I left out the 7mm because good luck getting the military to adopt it.
If those are still requirments then there is nothing wrong with what they are using now. Add a couple inches of barrel throw in the 190 grain bullet and in standard air youre subsonic to 1300+ yards. There is more to a sniper's weapon than windage.
Now if they want to increase ammo weight and recoil then by golly do it right. 338 LM.
I left out the 7mm because good luck getting the military to adopt it.
3fingervic
Well-Known Member
My vote is for the .338 Lapua. They should just adopt the U.K.'s Accuracy International rifle for the job. 2nd place .300wm.
