Help read OCW results

[Bigeclipse]

Ok guys. I did a round-robin style OCW test yesterday for my 3006 using 150 gr nosler accubonds, IMR4064 powder, remington brass (shot and resized 3 times), and federal primers. Please read every word as there is a lot of info about this and hopefully may eliminate any questions you might have, however if I miss something please comment/ask. The bullets were all seated to about .080 off the lands (unfortunately I have a long chamber and getting these bullets to .050 off the lands would mean the bullet would not be seated far. I think I could seat close to .050 if needed but decided on .080) This test was with 50grains powder up to 52.1 grains in .3 grain increments for a total of 8 different powder charges. The results were bad, to say the least, but it is what it is. Best group is 1.6 MOA.. I know for fact it is not the scope or bases as I retightened the bases/rings and changed to a known good scope before this test. My plan for this rifle is to get it to 400 yards but if my best load is only 1.6MOA this rifle will only be a 200 yard rifle for this season until I can work up a different load. I will post pictures of the results below. If you want to see a picture of a target upclose let me know. I loaded 3 bullets for each group but I did load a 4th for every group as a "just in case" which I am glad I did because I had 3 misfires!!! and they were not light strikes so it was definitely a primer issue. So any targets with 4 holes, three were fired in the round robin and 1 was fired AFTER the round robin. I will explain which were which below as well.

Notes on firing order and extra shots:
The order goes top left paper (top target 50grains, bottom target 50.3 grains). The top right paper is the next 2 charge groups (50.6gr and 50.9gr) in the same fassion. Then bottom left paper next two charges (51.2,51.5) and finally bottom right paper (51.8, 52.1). A couple more notes...I think the very first target is the so called "scatter group" which means 1-2% charge (.5-1 grains) above should have been an OCW zone according to what people say. Also note the bottom left paper, top target, the flyer at the top of the page was the first shot for that group in the first string of the actual round robin. I have NO idea what happened and why the other 2 grouped nicely so after the test I shot another one and it is the one that hit the bullseye. On the target below that the hole to the right of the bullseye was shot after the round robin test. The top target on the BOTTOM right page looks like there is only 3 holes but there are actually 4 (3 are touching and then a random flyer far below the bulsseye)...in this group one of the 3 touching was one shot after the round robin. The bottom target on the bottom right page was the best group at 1.6MOA BEFORE I started shooting those extra rounds I had.

So I have NO idea where to go now...Most likely this is an issue with either my gun not liking these bullets/powder combo BUT it could be a bedding issue? This rifle is definitely free floated ( I have checked with the 2 business card method). The action screws are both torqued to 45in/lbs (it is a remington rifle with B&C stock that has aluminum bedding block) I was told NOT to torque further which could stress the bottom metal or the action itself.

Here is what I am planning...I have 25 bullets left. Bow season is tomorrow so there is literally NO time left to do another whole round robin with new bullet or powder. I will be hunting every free chance I get except after work. The problem is There is usually only about 1 hour shooting light after work, so no way to do a whole round robin test again. I plan to pick one of these groups from this OCW test and do a bullet seating test by loading 3 at .12 off the lands, 3 at .090 off and 3 at .050 (since I already have data for .080). Again I really cant go closer than .050 due to chamber length. This will leave me with 15 bullets left. I will pick the best of those and hope it is near or under 1.5MOA. I will load 3 more of that group to confirm. This will leave me with 12 bullets for this years hunting season. Whatever group size I confirm at will be how far I will shoot a deer this year. For example...if I find a group at .5-1MOA and load 3 more and again get the same results then I will feel fine shooting this rifle to 300 yards this year and maybe 400 next. If I only get 1.25-2MOA then this season will be limited to 200 yards and I will work up a new load for the rifle after hunting season.

I know this was an extremely long post but please feel free to comment on anything and everything. Please dont say things like "well scrub the whole load and have rifle bedded and start loading again". I will most likely due this after hunting season BUT I am looking for what to do right now. I will be moral to the deer which is why I WILL limit my shots on the deer to whatever I feel myself and this rifle can handle. I have no issue with only shooting 200 yards if that is determined to be as far as I can shoot due to accuracy constraints. Thanks every.

P.S. I also just read another thread with someone that has the same exact rifle I do but in 260rem...they same their rifle shoots .5MOA all day as long as they have downward pressure on the rifle...they hold the rifle on the bench down with their front hand pulling down on the stock just in front of the bottom metal...it seems tjhe light weight rifles like to jump so I am wondering if some of the groups in my test have some "JUMP" flyers!!! Whatever one of these loads I pick I will try their holding down the rifle technique to see if this seems to work for me as well.

 

[Bigeclipse]

DANG it DO NOT USE THIS PICTURE....the forum keeps turning the picture sideways...the top of the picture is actually the left side of the picture below. Any ideas on how to turn this 90 degrees clockwise so people dont get confused? It was posted from my phone.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Ok here is the picture rotated....please USE THIS PICTURE GUYS!!! The descriptions in the long original post above will match this picture

 

[gohring3006]

Have you shot any other loads in this rifle to confirm if its capable of tighter groups? My 06 doesn't like 150s and 4064 I quit using light bullets so I never tried to work up a 150. I would scratch that load and go to an accurate factory load till you have more time. I'll tell ya. I found a good 400 yard deer load using 50gr. 4064 165 gr.hornady btsp. Seated to the canalure I got 1moa or better using this load and it was simple because I just seated to the canalure. Its worth a try you won't have a lot of money or time since you already have the powder.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Progression of shots picture

 

[Bigeclipse]

Have you shot any other loads in this rifle to confirm if its capable of tighter groups? My 06 doesn't like 150s and 4064 I quit using light bullets so I never tried to work up a 150. I would scratch that load and go to an accurate factory load till you have more time. I'll tell ya. I found a good 400 yard deer load using 50gr. 4064 165 gr.hornady btsp. Seated to the canalure I got 1moa or better using this load and it was simple because I just seated to the canalure. Its worth a try you won't have a lot of money or time since you already have the powder.

I honestly thought the rifle was able to do better than 1.5 MOA but now I am unsure. Last year I bought 3 different loads of factory ammo. 2 premium grades a 1 box o remington corelokts. Both premium grades shot right at 1.5MOA. The core lokts actually did better at right around 1 MOA BUT I bought another box of core lokts this year and they shot poorly at about 1.75MOA, obviously they were a different lot # as the first box so now I really am not sure if the rifle in its current state is capable and I will probably bed it this winter, although I have NEVER bedded a rifle before and we do not have gunsmiths near is who do this. As I stated above in the post...I am sticking with this load for this season and do not mind limiting the range of my shots. I have the bullets and might as well use them and really dont feel like wasting my money on factory rounds. If I cant get these to group any better with some seating tests...and the best I get is 1.5-2MOA, then my shots will be no more than 200 yards for this season which seriously is fine for me as 90% of my hunting is shots 100 yards or less anyways. I will certainly work a new load after hunting season is over. Thanks for the tip on hornady btsp...I will look into it.

 

[Dr. Vette]

I would think 51.2 and then start adjusting the seating length a bit shorter to see what you get. Try .040 shorter and .080 shorter than what you loaded these, and see if one of those groups is smaller.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Bigeclipse]

I would think 51.2 and then start adjusting the seating length a bit shorter to see what you get. Try .040 shorter and .080 shorter than what you loaded these, and see if one of those groups is smaller.

Just my thoughts.

ok just so I understand you correct...right now I am .080 off the lands...so are you saying load .040 (.080-.040=.040) and touching lands because (.080 off minus .080) is 0 OR do you mean make the over all length to ogive shorter by .040 and .080 which means I would then be .080+.040= .12 and .080+.080= .16 off the lands?

 

[WildRose]

I think the problem here is that you are rushed and frustrated due to the time constraints which tends to make us get pretty myopic, unable to properly evaluate situations.

The other problem is that there are still multiple issues.

One, I still think at the heart of it there's a driver issue and until it's resolved you're just not going to to solve the rest.

Two, you have a long throat and you are trying to shoot short bullets which means no matter what you end up doing you are going to have a long jump into the lans.

Let's try this. Get yourself some empty lead shot bags fill them with sand and sew them up.

Get out on your bench.

Get your rifle set at the proper height to give you good sight alignment to the target by stacking sandbags perpendicular to the length of your rifle.

Then lay sandbags along each side of the stack sort of sandwiching the stock between them nice and snug.

Shoot a group with your best load to this point.

This will eliminate for all practical purposes the "jump" upwards you are having to deal with, without putting stress out at the end of the forearm creating the likelihood of contact between the barrel and stock.

If this gives you a much better group than what you've had so far, then it tells you what you need to first solve is the muzzle flip issue.

If it were me I'd go get some 180's, even if it's just one box of good factory ammo and see if they don't work better for you.

You are using an extremely light bullet for a .30 cal and I've never had good results reaching to the bottom on the weight scale for a given caliber. Yes there's less recoil typically but with quality bullets the heavier will typically fly better/more accurately than those at the bottom end.

I feel your frustration. Went through the same thing many years ago with a 7mm Rem 700bdl. I ended up so frustrated over that rifle It was over 20 years before I owned another Remington. While the rifle had problems, much of the problem was me.

 

[Bigeclipse]

I think the problem here is that you are rushed and frustrated due to the time constraints which tends to make us get pretty myopic, unable to properly evaluate situations.

The other problem is that there are still multiple issues.

One, I still think at the heart of it there's a driver issue and until it's resolved you're just not going to to solve the rest.

Two, you have a long throat and you are trying to shoot short bullets which means no matter what you end up doing you are going to have a long jump into the lans.

Let's try this. Get yourself some empty lead shot bags fill them with sand and sew them up.

Get out on your bench.

Get your rifle set at the proper height to give you good sight alignment to the target by stacking sandbags perpendicular to the length of your rifle.

Then lay sandbags along each side of the stack sort of sandwiching the stock between them nice and snug.

Shoot a group with your best load to this point.

This will eliminate for all practical purposes the "jump" upwards you are having to deal with, without putting stress out at the end of the forearm creating the likelihood of contact between the barrel and stock.

If this gives you a much better group than what you've had so far, then it tells you what you need to first solve is the muzzle flip issue.

If it were me I'd go get some 180's, even if it's just one box of good factory ammo and see if they don't work better for you.

You are using an extremely light bullet for a .30 cal and I've never had good results reaching to the bottom on the weight scale for a given caliber. Yes there's less recoil typically but with quality bullets the heavier will typically fly better/more accurately than those at the bottom end.

I feel your frustration. Went through the same thing many years ago with a 7mm Rem 700bdl. I ended up so frustrated over that rifle It was over 20 years before I owned another Remington. While the rifle had problems, much of the problem was me.

Not sure what you mean by there is a "driver issue" issue?

As for the sandbag method...are you saying basically get a rest which supports the entire length of the stock (i.e. sand bags running under it) and then also have sandbags running along the sides of the entire stock (obviously do not touch the barrel)? Couldnt this still cause the rifle to "jump" since nothing is pulling down on the stock itself?

Third- I will try 180's after this hunting season. here is a funny comment though...I actually have 100 seirra game kings 180s BUT they are in fact shorter than the nosler 150s if you take the boatal into account which id think you have to since it does not touch case neck and has no impact on neck tension. What I mean by this is the game kings have a boat tail like 3 times as long as the accubonds which is where sierra is getting them to weigh 180 grains, so in reality as far as neck tension is concerned and seating depth, I will need to find a bullet which is long NOT including the boattail.

As far as me being rushed, YES you are right, I am rushed. Here is the reasoning though...I had only 2 hunting rifles up until 2 weeks ago (300wsm and my current 3006 mountain). I did not like the 300wsm and I wanted to build a new rifle so I sold that one AND I had thought my 3006 load was a good one until I retested it a few days later and found I was wrong but I had already sold my other rifle. So at the moment I literally only have the one rifle which is why I NEED a load by november gun opener. Bow starts tomorrow so I really will have little time. I do have enough to test a couple loads but I dont have 2-4 hours in one day(during shooting light) that I can run another full blown test on a completely new bullet/powder combo. Anyways, I feel pretty much any of the loads I have currently will get me to 200 yards and will do it humanely and accurately enough for deer. One load in particular will shoot a consistant 1.7 or LESS MOA. I am TRYING to get to 400 yards, which is where the goal of sub 1 MOA comes which is what I tried to achiece by doing this OCW test. I have some time to further try one of these loads from the OCW test to see what it will consistantly shoot. If that is 1MOA GREAT...if it is only 1.75MOA ok that STINKS BUT will get me to 200 yards and that is all I NEED for this year.
I do not like just doing things half A$$ed BUT kind of in a pickle at the moment.

 

[WildRose]

Not sure what you mean by there is a "driver issue" issue?

The guy behind it.

As for the sandbag method...are you saying basically get a rest which supports the entire length of the stock (i.e. sand bags running under it) and then also have sandbags running along the sides of the entire stock (obviously do not touch the barrel)? Couldnt this still cause the rifle to "jump" since nothing is pulling down on the stock itself?

Very little and the movement will be greatly retarded time wise. Energy takes the path of least resistance so most of the recoil will go straight back. There will be some jump but the bullet will already be clear of the barrel before you get there. A lot of that jump is coming from barrel harmonics and the "buggy whip effect" but there's little we can do about that.

I think though you'll see a big improvement and you can also put downward pressure on the scope in that position without creating a pinch point/contact between barrel and stock at the end of the forearm because the weight is distributed along the full length of the stock all the way to the trigger guard instead of focused at the end of the forearm.

Third- I will try 180's after this hunting season. here is a funny comment though...I actually have 100 seirra game kings 180s BUT they are in fact shorter than the nosler 150s if you take the boatal into account which id think you have to since it does not touch case neck and has no impact on neck tension. What I mean by this is the game kings have a boat tail like 3 times as long as the accubonds which is where sierra is getting them to weigh 180 grains, so in reality as far as neck tension is concerned and seating depth, I will need to find a bullet which is long NOT including the boattail.

Yep but then we're getting away from the principal of all else being equal since we're onto a different brand/type bullet.

As far as me being rushed, YES you are right, I am rushed. Here is the reasoning though...I had only 2 hunting rifles up until 2 weeks ago (300wsm and my current 3006 mountain). I did not like the 300wsm and I wanted to build a new rifle so I sold that one AND I had thought my 3006 load was a good one until I retested it a few days later and found I was wrong but I had already sold my other rifle. So at the moment I literally only have the one rifle which is why I NEED a load by november gun opener. Bow starts tomorrow so I really will have little time. I do have enough to test a couple loads but I dont have 2-4 hours in one day(during shooting light) that I can run another full blown test on a completely new bullet/powder combo. Anyways, I feel pretty much any of the loads I have currently will get me to 200 yards and will do it humanely and accurately enough for deer. One load in particular will shoot a consistant 1.7 or LESS MOA. I am TRYING to get to 400 yards, which is where the goal of sub 1 MOA comes which is what I tried to achiece by doing this OCW test. I have some time to further try one of these loads from the OCW test to see what it will consistantly shoot. If that is 1MOA GREAT...if it is only 1.75MOA ok that STINKS BUT will get me to 200 yards and that is all I NEED for this year.
I do not like just doing things half A$$ed BUT kind of in a pickle at the moment.

Relax. 2 MOA will still give you a very clean kill at 600yds. 2 MOA at 600yds is about 7". Your vital zone on a deer is about 18" left to right and 10" or so up and down. If you are hitting no worse than 9 inches left or right and 5" up and down from your point of aim you have a very dead critter if you aim for just behind the point of the shoulder.

If it were me I'd quit worrying about groups. The only shot that matters in reality is the first one and to a lesser extent one more. See what you can do to get the best results possible for two shots.

You get it where you can put that first shot in the right spot every time with a cold bore and the rest doesn't matter a whole lot if your dope is right.

 

[gohring3006]

I think the problem here is that you are rushed and frustrated due to the time constraints which tends to make us get pretty myopic, unable to properly evaluate situations.

The other problem is that there are still multiple issues.

One, I still think at the heart of it there's a driver issue and until it's resolved you're just not going to to solve the rest.

Two, you have a long throat and you are trying to shoot short bullets which means no matter what you end up doing you are going to have a long jump into the lans.

Let's try this. Get yourself some empty lead shot bags fill them with sand and sew them up.

Get out on your bench.

Get your rifle set at the proper height to give you good sight alignment to the target by stacking sandbags perpendicular to the length of your rifle.

Then lay sandbags along each side of the stack sort of sandwiching the stock between them nice and snug.

Shoot a group with your best load to this point.

This will eliminate for all practical purposes the "jump" upwards you are having to deal with, without putting stress out at the end of the forearm creating the likelihood of contact between the barrel and stock.

If this gives you a much better group than what you've had so far, then it tells you what you need to first solve is the muzzle flip issue.

If it were me I'd go get some 180's, even if it's just one box of good factory ammo and see if they don't work better for you.

You are using an extremely light bullet for a .30 cal and I've never had good results reaching to the bottom on the weight scale for a given caliber. Yes there's less recoil typically but with quality bullets the heavier will typically fly better/more accurately than those at the bottom end.

I feel your frustration. Went through the same thing many years ago with a 7mm Rem 700bdl. I ended up so frustrated over that rifle It was over 20 years before I owned another Remington. While the rifle had problems, much of the problem was me.

I agree with this, I thought I had a 1 moa rifle till I got a good rear bag. Turns out I have a rifle that shoots in the .3s

 

[Dr. Vette]

Three things -

First, yes I meant try seating deeper from where you are now.

Second, read this thread:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f116/importance-being-solid-91149/

Third, if you value your archery time far higher than your rifle time, which is what you allude to, set the rifle aside and worry about it someday in the future. If rifle season means as much to you as archery then you can afford the proper time to figure out the rifle, even if just testing 3-4 types of factory 180gr ammo.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Three things -

First, yes I meant try seating deeper from where you are now.

Second, read this thread:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f116/importance-being-solid-91149/

Third, if you value your archery time far higher than your rifle time, which is what you allude to, set the rifle aside and worry about it someday in the future. If rifle season means as much to you as archery then you can afford the proper time to figure out the rifle, even if just testing 3-4 types of factory 180gr ammo.

Thanks...I honestly do value bow season more...but I still enjoy gun season and I do want to do things right. That being said...for JUST this season...I only need a rifle that can shoot 200 yards and take a deer. Yes...I have a 400 yard field that I can sit on but the 4 years I've sat on it...no Dee has presented itself at 300-400 yards so that is NOT critical. If I know im limited to 200 yards I do not have an issue passing up deer further than that. So yes...for this season whatever works to get me 200 yard consistantly is what i NEED...300-400 is simply a nice to have and a goal i can shoot for next year.