Help me plan out a mid range rifle? .25-06 & light barrel experts needed.

[Bart B]

Some folks may not have thought of this, but regarding the .25-06's game-taking abilities........

Wouldn't it be equal to any other cartridge shooting a given 25 caliber bulled out the muzzle with the same twist rate and speed?

Last I remembered, game's killed with bullets, not cartridges. That is unless you use a large one such as a 40mm Bofors machine gun round then smack some animal up side its head with it. You might be able to stab one decently with a sharpened 50 caliber BMG round, too.

Just a thought........

 

[Tikkamike]

Some folks may not have thought of this, but regarding the .25-06's game-taking abilities........

Wouldn't it be equal to any other cartridge shooting a given 25 caliber bulled out the muzzle with the same twist rate and speed?

Last I remembered, game's killed with bullets, not cartridges. That is unless you use a large one such as a 40mm Bofors machine gun round then smack some animal up side its head with it. You might be able to stab one decently with a sharpened 50 caliber BMG round, too.

Just a thought........

whats your point? He asked about 25-06's with light barrels. of course a .257 bullet is a .257 bullet. but he wants to shoot his .257 bullet out of a light barreled 25-06.

 

[Bart B]

whats your point?

I thought you, of all those here, would understand.

My point's the fact that most folks tout a cartridge is great for taking game. All that cartridge does is put its front end down the barrel and out into the game. Only the bullet does the work downrange. Different cartridges put a given bullet out the barrel at different speeds for a given peak pressure level. Once in flight at the same speed and spin rate as any other powder charge and rifling twist puts it there, the bullet has no relation to the cartridge whatsoever.

 

[Tikkamike]

ok im with you. I thought you were off on an irrelevant tangent. I guess I read it wrong, my appologies. Yes thats a good thing to keep in mind. People get so stuck on a cartridge because it wounds good or thats what they heard works best. not to be mean to anyone but the weatherby fans are guilty of this usually. they think a 270 wby is top dog in the .277 world but in reality a 270wsm is a much more efficient round with almost identical ballistics. is that kinda what your saying bart?

 

[Guy M]

Sure Bart - a guy can get roughly the same ballistics from several different cartridges. The ones that come to mind are the .257 AI, possibly the .25 Souper, and of course the .257 Weatherby mag outdoes them all with sheer velocity. Some are handloading only propositions, and the Weatherby can be very expensive to feed.

I've got a .25-06 and my son shoots a .257 Weatherby that's been in our family since Weatherby built it on a Mauser action back in the late 1940's. Great old rifle. They both do about the same thing on deer - which means they induce instant or near instant death without knocking the snot out of the shooter.

Do like the fact though, that a guy shooting a .25-06 can get reasonably priced ammo at just about any western sporting goods store. That goes well with the OP who said he's not likely to be doing much handloading.

Regards, Guy

 

[SBruce]

Here's what a light barrel 25-06 will do to steel at 300 yds. One cold bore shot on the bottom plate.

The bottom is a new 6" AR500 plate. The one fresh shot is from a 100 Barnes TSX going 3210'/sec from 300 yds away. The other dimples close to it were shot with a 204 and 32grn accutip going about 4000'/sec from 100 yds away.

The majority of the craters in the upper plate (softer steel, but 1/2" thick) were made with the same 25-06 and same load. Usually shot from distances of 300 to 500 yds. The 100 grn Barnes does more damage to the steel than a 117 grn SST does.

The complete pass throughs were with 7mm magnums and bigger calibers at distances of 100 to 300 yds. There's one big pass through hole that was made with a 338 Edge and 300 SMK at 2850'/sec. from 400 yds away, but I don't recall which one it is, upper right maybe.

 

[dmr400]

I ordered a remington 700 ADL today, decided I would go the build route and the ADL with X-Mark trigger will be $387 out the door when it arrives. I will probaby shoot it for a while and then have it rebarrelled, will keep everyone posted.

 

[Guy M]

Sounds good! Ordered it in .25-06 to start with? Why not?

You may find, as I did, that the Remington barrel although rough, is pretty doggone accurate with the right loads. I'm almost reluctant to contemplate replacing mine anymore... Will have to be done someday though.

Let us know how it works out, deer should be in terror this coming fall, and coyotes & varmints before then!

Guy

 

[dmr400]

I guess I should have mentioned, I did order it in 25-06. The plan, as always, is to shoot it, then make the minimum change I think it will take (whether that turns out to be bedding, or truing and rebarrel, or something completely different), shoot it, make an upgrade, shoot it, rinse, lather, repeat. I don't intend to make the mistake (or at least I see it as one) of "overcustomizing" all at once...before I have any idea of what it is capable of. If I get acceptable accuracy with the factory barrel I will shoot it out before rebarrelling for the longer length I would like someday.

 

[SBruce]

I guess I should have mentioned, I did order it in 25-06. The plan, as always, is to shoot it, then make the minimum change I think it will take (whether that turns out to be bedding, or truing and rebarrel, or something completely different), shoot it, make an upgrade, shoot it, rinse, lather, repeat. I don't intend to make the mistake (or at least I see it as one) of "overcustomizing" all at once...before I have any idea of what it is capable of. If I get acceptable accuracy with the factory barrel I will shoot it out before rebarrelling for the longer length I would like someday.

You're on the right track, see what it will do before you dump a bunch of money into it.

Just be aware that sometimes free-floating the barrel will greatly improve accuracy, other times it will decrease accuracy (group size) with the same load.

I am assuming that the ADL doesn't come floated (just like my BDL) but instead has a "pressure pad" bedding from the factory.?

After having mine bedded and free-floated, groups actually opened up with the same exact ammo.............stands to reason right? The barrel harmonics are now different. Nothing that a small change in load shouldn't be able to fix, but if you are limited to factory ammo, that small change in load could mean a totally different ammo brand/bullet type.

Still, that being said; I'd personally rather have the consistency of a floated barrel/bedded action, even if that sometimes means a slight increase in moa's. ESPECIALLY on a light weight medium range big game gun.

Great things about remington actions, alot of good gunsmiths work on them, and you can get excellent triggers for them. I've never had a problem feeding or cycling/ejecting problem with a remington either. The X-mark pro trigger will go down to about 2.5 lbs (at least the one I had did anyway), but you can get Timneys, Rifle Basix, Jewell's and others that will go less safely.

 

[Bart B]

After having mine bedded and free-floated, groups actually opened up with the same exact ammo.............stands to reason right? The barrel harmonics are now different.

No, it doesn't stand to reason. Here's why.

The reason barrels shoot more accurate when free floated is they're clear of the stock's fore end that moves around from holding pressure as it rests on something or from sling tension. When the fore end bends/whips/vibrates and touches the barrel as the shot's fired, the barrel will change the direction and/or amount it wiggles as the bullet goes through it.

But the barreled action's basic frequency it wiggles at does not change. For a given barreled action, it has one low frequency it wiggles at; typically less than 100 hz (cycles per second) that changes the muzzle axis angles it points at. The harmonics of that barrel are multiples of that one low (or fundamental resonant) frequency; 2x, 3x, 4x or second, third or fourth harmonic. These harmonics change the muzzle axis angle very little compared to the big angle caused by the fundamental frequency.

Bolting the barreled action in a stock changes that fundamental frequency a tiny bit because it adds the stock's mass to the system. Mounting a scope changes it a little bit, too.

This is the first time I've heard from anyone that a rifle shoots less accurate after free floating the barrel. If that really happened, it's not because some barreled action whipping/vibrating frequency changed; that doesn't change. As one's removed any interference between barrel and fore end by free floating the barrel, I cannot concieve why accuracy would be worse. So, I think something else changed from original bedding to free floating the barrel.

 

[SBruce]

Bart B,

What you are saying, frankly went right over my head.

This isn't the first time I've heard of it with light barrel rifles, but it's the first time I've actually seen it personally. Maybe you know, why is it that so many light barrel factory rifles come with a pressure pad on the forend? Is that what they have to do to get decent groups size out of the box?

I believe that all barrels should be floated so change in stock pressure doesn't cause a shift in POI, but there has to be some reason that so many guns come factory with upward pressure on the barrel at the forend.??

I am no expert on making/building rifles, but I've personally seen bedding/floating give great increase in precision with same load, no change in precision with same load, and now, a small decrease in precision with same load. Bedding/floating was done by a gunsmith I have utmost faith in.

Heres what my light barrel 25-06 could do with one particular handload prior to bedding action/floating barrel, and I fully intend on trying that load again now. Even though precision was plenty good, POI shifted from one day to the next or one season to the next (sometimes more than 1 moa!). Even if my groups are a little bigger, I'll gladly take that over a 5" shift in POI at 300 yds any day. Perhaps I have a bad scope, but will a bad scope occasionally shoot one hole at 100 and 1" at 300?

 

[SBruce]

Here's what I mean by POI shift. One morning last fall I fired this group at 300 yds. The very previous evening, I fired another group at 300 yds. The evening group was about twice this size, but the center of it was clearly 3" above the center target (aiming point). The morning group is obviously well below my aiming point. Temperature and benchrest/shooting position were the same both occasions. 3 inch groups at 300 yds are acceptable for what this rifle is used for, but that huge shift in POI was not acceptable.