WildRose
Well-Known Member
I sincerely doubt it.
Heavy Bullets!
- Thread starter RMulhern
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WildRose
Well-Known Member
See the post above yours.
I'm just trying to see why there is a discussion here. Am I wrong in agreeing with both LTLR and Broz? If you take the same type bullet in the same caliber and compare them, the heavier bullet will always win out because it has the higher BC. Now if you throw velocity in there then it changes things. In most cases the lighter lower BC bullet will go faster, sometimes a lot faster and will drop less to a certain point but the heavier bullet with the higher BC will catch up with and surpass the performance of the lighter and lower BC bullet at the longer distances. It is really up to the shooter if he/she wants to split hairs to find out which bullet will work better for them based on the distance that they will be shooting. If they are shooting at shorter distances then the lighter faster bullet will work better for them because it is dropping less at their chosen max range. If their chosen max range is 1k and over than the heavier and higher BC would be better. Am I missing something here?
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
If two bullets of the same caliber, construction and design are compared with the only difference being weight the heavier bullet is the one you want to shoot at extreme range because it will have the highest BC and best performance in the end.
Some of the specialty bullets can have higher BC's than comparable weight bullets from the major companies. I have been testing some of these the past year in 6.5, 30 and 338 calibers. Some bullets I now shoot regularly are a .6 BC 180 grain 30 cal, .64 BC 225 grain 338 cal and a .76 BC 260 grain 338 cal. Specialty bullets are expensive but can give great performance for a guy looking for a top end hunting load. The lighter bullets that retain high BC's such as these can give an advantage out to a certain distance with the velocity they can be driven at. But then as you go higher in weight with these bullets the same laws still work and the BC increases and the heavier bullet still wins. For some reason the ones I am shooting are faster than the same weight lead core bullets giving me an extra advantage when shooting these.
When Barnes started coming out with some heavy high BC bullets me and fiftydriver on here and I am sure others found that the BC was higher than listed on some and equal to heavier lead core bullets. At the SHOT show I talked to Barnes about this at length and they were also finding that there actual BC's were higher than published. They have now set up doppler radar on their range and have the capability to determine BC's exactly at any velocity or range. That will be interesting. Some of their BC's will change in the future. But again as those bullets get heavier the BC gets higher. It is just higher at the same weight as some other companies.
The issue with monometal alloy bullets that can give high BC's at lighter weights than lead core bullets is the length of the bullet which requires a faster than normal twist. This is because the alloys are lighter than lead. That is the reason companies such as Barnes can not introduce bullets as heavy as some lead core bullets. They will not shoot in factory twist rifles. A 168 grain 7mm bullet, 200 grain 30 cal and the 265 grain 338 bullets are examples. That is as heavy as they can go and stabilize them with normal twist barrels.
So, to answer your question there are some bullets that shoot the same BC at a lighter weight than others. But at the same time increase the weight of those bullets and the BC increases also. A good example is the 260 grain 338 cal bullet I am now testing. It has virtually the same BC and is quite a bit longer than the 300 grain SMK however I can drive it 250 fps faster. In that case the lighter 260 grain is the bullet to shoot since it has the same BC however much better ballistics at 250 fps faster than the 300 SMK.
Some of the specialty bullets can have higher BC's than comparable weight bullets from the major companies. I have been testing some of these the past year in 6.5, 30 and 338 calibers. Some bullets I now shoot regularly are a .6 BC 180 grain 30 cal, .64 BC 225 grain 338 cal and a .76 BC 260 grain 338 cal. Specialty bullets are expensive but can give great performance for a guy looking for a top end hunting load. The lighter bullets that retain high BC's such as these can give an advantage out to a certain distance with the velocity they can be driven at. But then as you go higher in weight with these bullets the same laws still work and the BC increases and the heavier bullet still wins. For some reason the ones I am shooting are faster than the same weight lead core bullets giving me an extra advantage when shooting these.
When Barnes started coming out with some heavy high BC bullets me and fiftydriver on here and I am sure others found that the BC was higher than listed on some and equal to heavier lead core bullets. At the SHOT show I talked to Barnes about this at length and they were also finding that there actual BC's were higher than published. They have now set up doppler radar on their range and have the capability to determine BC's exactly at any velocity or range. That will be interesting. Some of their BC's will change in the future. But again as those bullets get heavier the BC gets higher. It is just higher at the same weight as some other companies.
The issue with monometal alloy bullets that can give high BC's at lighter weights than lead core bullets is the length of the bullet which requires a faster than normal twist. This is because the alloys are lighter than lead. That is the reason companies such as Barnes can not introduce bullets as heavy as some lead core bullets. They will not shoot in factory twist rifles. A 168 grain 7mm bullet, 200 grain 30 cal and the 265 grain 338 bullets are examples. That is as heavy as they can go and stabilize them with normal twist barrels.
So, to answer your question there are some bullets that shoot the same BC at a lighter weight than others. But at the same time increase the weight of those bullets and the BC increases also. A good example is the 260 grain 338 cal bullet I am now testing. It has virtually the same BC and is quite a bit longer than the 300 grain SMK however I can drive it 250 fps faster. In that case the lighter 260 grain is the bullet to shoot since it has the same BC however much better ballistics at 250 fps faster than the 300 SMK.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Naa I'm in the same situation.
Of course your point is also limited by case size and the ability to push the heavy for caliber bullets fast enough to take advantage of their high BC's as we discussed when comparing some .308win and 30-06 loads.
An underpowered big bullet is not going to perform well if for no other reason than the added flight time.
Truc
Well-Known Member
I sold the newer barrel as I didn't have time to compete w/ it. I still have the older barrel which is a 1/8 twist. The rifle is my short range point blank score/group rifle (Panda action) which I just change the barrel to shoot the 6 Dasher and 600 yds. As far as I know of the 105 VLD's need the 1/8 twist. I do know guys that are shooting the 95 VLD's which may use a slower twist and having excellent results. This was at Bridgeville, DE rifle range which is maybe only 100 feet above sea level.
barnesuser28
Well-Known Member
Barnes has come out with a 280 grain Lrx that i am shooting out of a Savage 338 Lapua with exceptional accuracy. Have you and/or Fiftydriver had a chance to test the BC of this bullet yet? If not do you plan to?
blipelt
Well-Known Member
Truc, yeah the original 104freebore Richard setup 10+years ago was designed for the 95 and 105s. 8twist is norm, but I have saw some faster twists with the 105. I just ordered a couple more blanks in 7.75. Think I will order a 12 just to see for myself if there is anything about the it.
Brent
Brent
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
Barnesuser, I am aware of the 280 grain but have not tried it. I do not know if Kirby has. When the 265 came out we got way higher bc numbers than listed so I tried a few other barnes and got the same thing. People were wanting them to come out with a 300 grain but it is just to long in copper and requires a faster than normal twist and couldn't do it after considering it. That is what I was told straight from the horses mouth. When they get time to do some doppler work Barnes will have the most exact BC's in the business. I am very interested to see exactly where those fall but then how do you compare them to other bullets that are only calculated. Again, you just have to shoot them to find out.
barnesuser28
Well-Known Member
LTLR when velocities fall below 2200 fps with a Barnes Lrx would a shoulder shot be prefered over a behind the shoulder shot to ensure expansion?
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
On long shots where your velocity falls off dramatically it is best to hit the shoulder shot or high shoulder shot if possible. This will disable the animal immediately. When the bullet has lost velocity and may not perform as advertised the behind the shoulder shot is risky with any bullet because of the possibility of not enough trauma to the animal to dispatch it quick enough. Blood trails may be weak at best at the lower velocity and you could lose the animal although he will probably die. Barnes bullets are very good at long range since their construction allows them to crush through shoulder bones at low velocity and dispatch the animal typically blowing through both shoulders and clear through the animal even at low velocity. Behind the shoulder and you will get two holes. One in and one out with a good blood trail however the trauma inside will be less at low velocity. When Barnes went to the ttsx bullet it performs way better at low velocity than the old Barnes bullets. The ttsx and lrx are suppose to be the same performance on game from what I have been told. A 280 grain Barnes 338 bullet can easily shoot through any elk size or smaller animal at any legitimate hunting range and leave a big hole in and out. That is what you want.
barnesuser28
Well-Known Member
Thanks LTLR. So you are saying that a high shoulder shot would be prefered on low velocity impacts. Right? On a closer shot when impact velocities are between say 2600-2200 fps would a high shoulder should still be prefered?
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
Every shot is opinion and we are assuming a perfect broadside shot at an animal in the open and relaxed. That rarely happens in my hunting situations on heavily hunted public land. However if you can make the high shoulder shot it is the best to quickly dispatch an animal at any range. It is a more difficult shot to make and I see many shoot over the animal trying it. But once you master it the animal goes down it it's tracks with most any bullet or caliber used.
I enjoy eating the animal and some very good meat is in that high shoulder and loin you ruin when you break the spine there. So I do not use it when meat is a priority and punch the lungs wasting a little rib meat. Every shot is different and I aim depending on the best spot to give me the best chance of recovering the animal depending on the angle I am presented. I know anatomy very well and just put the bullet in the best spot with the angle I am presented. It just varies shot to shot.
I enjoy eating the animal and some very good meat is in that high shoulder and loin you ruin when you break the spine there. So I do not use it when meat is a priority and punch the lungs wasting a little rib meat. Every shot is different and I aim depending on the best spot to give me the best chance of recovering the animal depending on the angle I am presented. I know anatomy very well and just put the bullet in the best spot with the angle I am presented. It just varies shot to shot.
barnesuser28
Well-Known Member
Thanks LTLR, I really appreciate it.
