Hammer bullets WTH

[ButterBean]

If that whole video was about hole size not the tip then you should have used the same tip to Guage multiple bullets to show a hole size issue not one bullet to Guage fit change on multiple tips. And if it was universal as being suggested mine should have exhibited a difference and they do not.
His conclusion was different polymer, how else should I take that?

The rest of what I have to say I'll PM you!

That's not what the video was about, I referenced the blue tips because that's when yhe problem started, everyone fixated on "Blue" and ran wild.
And yes IMO there is inconsistency in the polymer they are using

 

[bigngreen]

That's not what the video was about, I referenced the blue tips because that's when yhe problem started, everyone fixated on "Blue" and ran wild.
And yes IMO there is inconsistency in the polymer they are using

I seriously feel we watched two different videos. In post # 264 you said it was hole size and fit not a polymer.

Now it's the polymer, which was tested, supply checked and it's the same, it's seems like the polymer in the production bullets has been the same.
Only Hammer and Fordy knows if he also had prototype polymers, that would change things as well!

Everything I have is the same, I can measure a difference, I can't feel the difference so it makes me ask how would I get the same exact polymer in a first run and the latest run, color indicating different batches, if this was a acroass the board HHT issue.

 

[ButterBean]

I seriously feel we watched two different videos. In post # 264 you said it was hole size and fit not a polymer.

Now it's the polymer, which was tested, supply checked and it's the same, it's seems like the polymer in the production bullets has been the same.
Only Hammer and Fordy knows if he also had prototype polymers, that would change things as well!

Everything I have is the same, I can measure a difference, I can't feel the difference so it makes me ask how would I get the same exact polymer in a first run and the latest run, color indicating different batches, if this was a acroass the board HHT issue.

I apologize, your never gonna see the forest for all the trees,

 

[bigngreen]

I apologize, your never gonna see the forest for all the trees,

Good point, I'm using verifiable measuring equipment, if your saying the whole forest is wrong then give me the tool to check my trees!! There are tangible, messurable way of dealing with some things, I measured my bullets and tips with a high end micrometer that's accurate to the .00001 I see no difference .
You say you think there is inconsistency in the polymer, measurement says their the same so is it composition, the tests and supply says the chemistry is the same in the production bullets I have.
I'm not going on feelings, if we can measure it we can verify it.

 

[Petey308]

Petey, can you go into a bit more detail regarding the bolded statement above?

How much room for error is there, really? What do you consider as "forgiving"?

The reason that I ask is that in my experience, a bad shot never has the outcome that I want (a quick, clean kill). Yes, a gut shot will eventually kill an animal, but it is never quick and on most of the game that I hunt (whitetails, pigs, elk, exotics, bears) it leads to very long days/nights and quite a few rodeos. So, if you have had different experiences, I would really like to hear about them as I will add them to my "knowledge base".

I could go into a TON of detail lol. More than you probably want or are willing to read. I'll try to give you the basics of what you're asking for though. I think maybe I should start a new thread on some of this stuff though for a better discussion overall on it. Who knows when I'll have the time to do that though lol.

So in a nutshell, bullets such as Sierra TMKs, Hornady ELDMs or A-Tips, Bergers of the hybrid design, etc (for cup and core varieties), and petal-shedding mono varieties like Apex Afterburner, Hammers, Cutting Edge varieties, and McGuire Copper Rose to an extent, are actually very forgiving (or can be) to less than ideal shot placements because they do indeed come apart and they'll inflict much more damage, create much wider wounding, and cause a much faster death than other bullet designs. The softer and/or frangible bullets still tend to shed enough material outwards that they'll still hit liver and/or lung when shot placements aren't ideal and are in that "no man's land", and will typically still cause enough blood loss to find and recover the animal not far from where it was shot. However, they still won't make up for shot placements that were way off. There's only so much you can ask for here lol. So the room for error isn't massive by any means, but significant nonetheless.

Bullets that don't shed weight (or much weight), such as bonded cup and cores and mushrooming monos, and hold together for the most part as they penetrate through the animal, do tend to reduce meat loss/damage, but that comes at a trade-off. Typically, the overall amount of wounding is less with that type of bullet. If it impacts below its ideal velocity, the amount of wounding will be even less. If you miss vitals (hitting in that "no man's land"), you may very well miss recovering the animal too. A well constructed cup and core bullet or mono, that will indeed shed weight, can be much more forgiving in that particular scenario since it would produce wider wounding and may still reach vitals and be the difference between recovering the animal or not.

Another way these "well-constructed" bullets produce wider wounding overall is by the amount of hydraulic force they produce throughout their journey through the animal. The cup and cores shed weight and pieces, that reach out creating a wider wound channel, but also continue mushrooming as they continue penetrating, producing a good deal of opposing hydraulic force within the animal and that force goes outward and ruptures tissues and blood vessels. The good petal-shedding monos produce a massive amount of hydraulic force during the actual petal-shedding event. Some are better at this that others- to include some lines within the same brand of bullet. You get a lot of rupturing and trauma that occurs during that event, and it reaches out pretty far. The petals themselves tend to reach out and create secondary wounding as well. If the particular alloy of metal used in the bullet is such a way as to give some plasticity to the shank that's left, it will mushroom a bit still and still produce a decent amount of hydraulic force as well as it continues penetrating. This helps ensure it still produces disproportionate to caliber size wound channels, rather than just penciling through. Some designs struggle with this and do indeed end up penciling.

Again, I don't know how much more detail you want me to go into. I'm trying to keep this brief but answer your question still. Let me know if you want anything further to be discussed. The bottom line is that there's yet to be a bullet that allows you to put it anywhere you want on an animal and have it drop still no matter what. There are bullets though that'll still be the difference between recovering the animal and it running off maybe to not be recovered, or recovered way too late, due to being off even several inches from where intended.

 

[Muddyboots]

The bottom line is that there's yet to be a bullet that allows you to put it anywhere you want on an animal and have it drop still no matter what. There are bullets though that'll still be the difference between recovering the animal and it running off maybe to not be recovered, or recovered way too late, due to being off even several inches from where intended.

The most sensible description of any bullet's performance.

 

[ButterBean]

Good point, I'm using verifiable measuring equipment, if your saying the whole forest is wrong then give me the tool to check my trees!! There are tangible, messurable way of dealing with some things, I measured my bullets and tips with a high end micrometer that's accurate to the .00001 I see no difference .
You say you think there is inconsistency in the polymer, measurement says their the same so is it composition, the tests and supply says the chemistry is the same in the production bullets I have.
I'm not going on feelings, if we can measure it we can verify it.

If you didn't see it in the video Once again you'll never see it. Have a good evening with your high end micrometer
Bean

 

[bfarms]

 

[bfarms]

I will say. Thank you bean for posting the videos, and thank you fordy for making them! I don't know much about the hammers, Or any copper bullet really. Haven't shot any of them. But I have learned a few things from the last few pages.

 

[Poor_choices]

This thread has a ton of great information. Talking about bullets is like politics though, people can get pretty passionate about "their" bullet.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I could go into a TON of detail lol. More than you probably want or are willing to read. I'll try to give you the basics of what you're asking for though. I think maybe I should start a new thread on some of this stuff though for a better discussion overall on it. Who knows when I'll have the time to do that though lol.

So in a nutshell, bullets such as Sierra TMKs, Hornady ELDMs or A-Tips, Bergers of the hybrid design, etc (for cup and core varieties), and petal-shedding mono varieties like Apex Afterburner, Hammers, Cutting Edge varieties, and McGuire Copper Rose to an extent, are actually very forgiving (or can be) to less than ideal shot placements because they do indeed come apart and they'll inflict much more damage, create much wider wounding, and cause a much faster death than other bullet designs. The softer and/or frangible bullets still tend to shed enough material outwards that they'll still hit liver and/or lung when shot placements aren't ideal and are in that "no man's land", and will typically still cause enough blood loss to find and recover the animal not far from where it was shot. However, they still won't make up for shot placements that were way off. There's only so much you can ask for here lol. So the room for error isn't massive by any means, but significant nonetheless.

Bullets that don't shed weight (or much weight), such as bonded cup and cores and mushrooming monos, and hold together for the most part as they penetrate through the animal, do tend to reduce meat loss/damage, but that comes at a trade-off. Typically, the overall amount of wounding is less with that type of bullet. If it impacts below its ideal velocity, the amount of wounding will be even less. If you miss vitals (hitting in that "no man's land"), you may very well miss recovering the animal too. A well constructed cup and core bullet or mono, that will indeed shed weight, can be much more forgiving in that particular scenario since it would produce wider wounding and may still reach vitals and be the difference between recovering the animal or not.

Another way these "well-constructed" bullets produce wider wounding overall is by the amount of hydraulic force they produce throughout their journey through the animal. The cup and cores shed weight and pieces, that reach out creating a wider wound channel, but also continue mushrooming as they continue penetrating, producing a good deal of opposing hydraulic force within the animal and that force goes outward and ruptures tissues and blood vessels. The good petal-shedding monos produce a massive amount of hydraulic force during the actual petal-shedding event. Some are better at this that others- to include some lines within the same brand of bullet. You get a lot of rupturing and trauma that occurs during that event, and it reaches out pretty far. The petals themselves tend to reach out and create secondary wounding as well. If the particular alloy of metal used in the bullet is such a way as to give some plasticity to the shank that's left, it will mushroom a bit still and still produce a decent amount of hydraulic force as well as it continues penetrating. This helps ensure it still produces disproportionate to caliber size wound channels, rather than just penciling through. Some designs struggle with this and do indeed end up penciling.

Again, I don't know how much more detail you want me to go into. I'm trying to keep this brief but answer your question still. Let me know if you want anything further to be discussed. The bottom line is that there's yet to be a bullet that allows you to put it anywhere you want on an animal and have it drop still no matter what. There are bullets though that'll still be the difference between recovering the animal and it running off maybe to not be recovered, or recovered way too late, due to being off even several inches from where intended.

Thank you so much! Very good breakdown and as I suspected, your explanation is very similar to my experiences.

My bullet journey went from standard cup and core, to bonded, to monos, back to bonded, and now ballistic tips and match bullets. I prefer dead as soon as possible over saving as much meat as I can.

 

[lilharcher]

Wow, this turned into a doozy!

 

[fordy]

Gday Aaron & handgun htr

The tides a turning



Oh & @cohunt i forgot to mention about the apex he's onto his gen 3 pills now & we talked about the pop that his pills basically lack to take them to the next level around 8 months ago for which he told me the other day he's got some things worked out on that ( I can't say to much & other parts i don't know) & sounds promising so I guess I'll have to get some of those to test also lol

Just a bit to tick on but the future is looking interesting & one I can't retire from testing yet as have to sort fact from fiction right
Cheers

 

[FEENIX]

This thread has a ton of great information. Talking about bullets is like politics though, people can get pretty passionate about "their" bullet.

Wow, this turned into a doozy!

Yep, especially when the OP has decided, like it or not, and is long gone.

I agree that plenty of vital information is shared, especially the new ones being revealed. It is now up to the consumers to make their own decisions and move on.