Hammer bullets WTH

[snox801]

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If another thread is started it would be no different than this one if the people making the claim cant give a simple answer.

All I want to know is what are the problems with the HHTs. Without an answer, there are none.

I have not seen any. I've been slowly swapping them in to my stuff as I run out of hh.
I've seen no such issues on my end and as most know I don't kill like some on here but a decent amount of the 100 or so big game I take a year is with the hht.
I also am fascinated by the terminal side so I do kinda take them apart to see what happened.
I own no 7mm so can't speak to them

 

[fordy]

That's your experience. Generally speaking I think it's hard to argue that if one is going to kill better it's the cup and core. Tons of examples of guys using Barnes and having long tracking jobs. It's hard to argue against micro metal fragmentation causing more tissue trauma.

Gday joefrazel & after reading where I left off yesterday others also & I'd be happy if a new thread but here's a little bit to chew over till someone puts up a more relevant thread imo of course

The first part is we are all saying the pill killed to a certain level & yet the division is occurring as some say it killed well others room for improvement hmmm
We are all wrong as there is only one person it actually matters too & that's the OP
His is the only one that matters so ease up on him I believe would be somewhat appropriate

& why a new thread would be better suited as getting into these discussions is often hard especially @ my typing speed

Now onto somewhat of the quote above & no doubt I'll get sidetracked lol

I mean the following with the utmost respect & also I am agreeing yet disagreeing in the same sense

Please define "kill better "

It's not about arguing against it's a matter of seeing & then understanding what is going on

A mono can produce better results( if needed I'll provide factual information )
the problem is most companies don't get it as they are still using the old systems or just worried about selling bullets or for individuals we have not used the new generation pills yet & or going off assumptions or have closed off minds
Once again with respect above

Monos require a different understanding of what needs to occur to get these results to occur

Now you'll watch people go but it dosent kill like a Berger or amax etc & most will be in this boat & rightly so
But even those 2 pills kill differently & yet most won't pick it but you see people go one pill over the other due to their own experience & rightly so but by analysing those 2 killing systems & people thoughts on why they would rather the ones they like the best over the other you'll see you can somewhat see a gap exists in pill preformance & that also can be filled by another c&c but what do we do go same route as always have & the wheel goes round ( nothing wrong with that but really you'll not raise the bar just refine it which is cool )

Now the monos I have had a higher bangflop ratio ( not talking a few critters as some know I don't deal in a few well maybe in a hour or two ) this started all the way back in the 1990's but the velocity window it occurred in was very small & not practical over most ranges I shot @ but dual load fantastic in certain situations

Now flip over the years & we have seen advancements in the mono industry for sure but until I came across hammers the basic principle which were correct & even the old gpa pill from those 90's needed speed as did the hammers I first used but lowered the needed velocity to get a result on a killing curve efficiency level ( broadly speaking impact speeds as all pills even in the same brand have own velocity impact sweetspots )

So now why were hammers a different kettle of fish as a basic mono they are & yet they still failed to outperform the very best frangibles @ the very low velocity impacts but potentially it was there & latter was proved it could get extremely close & even match but it took apex afterburner to show it could exceed the performance standard that the frangible held the crown on for years & once again not a one off it showed it multiple times

So apex is the bees knees right & will kill everything like that
yeah not correct

Yet you move that apex to the mid 2000's impacts & some of the frangible takes over again & some of the original hammers would be close to the frangible or exceed them ( these are all impact speeds & yes bc comes in here but let's not get that derailed lol ) now move those impacts to the 3k plus mark & the frangible is found it's progressing backwards on the killing efficiency curves ( sometimes it's incredibly spectacular but keep shooting is the key & you'll see the velocity impact sweetspot has been exceeded ) the hammer now entered into its own as reliability of producing a better shapecharge/bubble but today's hammers have no pop to the pill the same as the apex now move to ceb & you'll see exactly the same occur of no pop or as mcquire calls it the detonation point
& on the very few McGuire pills I've used I've seen snippets of the pop /detonation point occur & also saw this in badlands gen 1 but it was like the gpa of a very small window of occurrence

So the bar has definitely altered from a frangible being king ( in that 6.5 line I tested not saying all calibres all pills as testing would needed to be done to confirm as should be but the pattern is definitely there & apex done extremely well & consistently did it )

Now this hht stuff is not only hht it's also other lines but once again now we will see different interpretations of killing levels appear

so let's go this route
The level that hammer kills @ today is not what it once was so if that is still in one's wheelhouse of acceptable that's cool

To state that hammers have the same killing level today as yesterday's is false & how much more do I need to show

Cheers

 

[Shane Lindsey]

Is that all Hammers or just the HHT?

 

[Quintus]

-Thanks Fordy, I am a little curious about the last =

so let's go this route
The level that hammer kills @ today is not what it once was so if that is still in one's wheelhouse of acceptable that's cool

To state that hammers have the same killing level today as yesterday's is false & how much more do I need to show

So I have not messed with the tipped Hammers mostly due to the fact the HH have been phenomenal for my application. I am a 500 yards and in hunter, typically run mid-weight for caliber usually at least an inch faster in twist than the recommended minimum. Are you saying the hammer Hunters that come off the line today don't kill as well as the same bullet cal. and weight from a couple years ago? Or that the new tipped and shape designs don't match the original HH?

 

[bfarms]

I don't shoot hammers. But I do have a sample back in the reload room. Just haven't ever loaded them. They came with some green tips in a seperate bag. With all this tip talk, what's the reasoning for them to send a bag of tips? Is there a gain one way or another when it comes to shooting with or without the tip? I'm pretty sure they are 168hh. I'd have to go look to be sure on that.

 

[cohunt]

Gday joefrazel & after reading where I left off yesterday others also & I'd be happy if a new thread but here's a little bit to chew over till someone puts up a more relevant thread imo of course

The first part is we are all saying the pill killed to a certain level & yet the division is occurring as some say it killed well others room for improvement hmmm
We are all wrong as there is only one person it actually matters too & that's the OP
His is the only one that matters so ease up on him I believe would be somewhat appropriate

& why a new thread would be better suited as getting into these discussions is often hard especially @ my typing speed

Now onto somewhat of the quote above & no doubt I'll get sidetracked lol

I mean the following with the utmost respect & also I am agreeing yet disagreeing in the same sense

Please define "kill better "

It's not about arguing against it's a matter of seeing & then understanding what is going on

A mono can produce better results( if needed I'll provide factual information )
the problem is most companies don't get it as they are still using the old systems or just worried about selling bullets or for individuals we have not used the new generation pills yet & or going off assumptions or have closed off minds
Once again with respect above

Monos require a different understanding of what needs to occur to get these results to occur

Now you'll watch people go but it dosent kill like a Berger or amax etc & most will be in this boat & rightly so
But even those 2 pills kill differently & yet most won't pick it but you see people go one pill over the other due to their own experience & rightly so but by analysing those 2 killing systems & people thoughts on why they would rather the ones they like the best over the other you'll see you can somewhat see a gap exists in pill preformance & that also can be filled by another c&c but what do we do go same route as always have & the wheel goes round ( nothing wrong with that but really you'll not raise the bar just refine it which is cool )

Now the monos I have had a higher bangflop ratio ( not talking a few critters as some know I don't deal in a few well maybe in a hour or two ) this started all the way back in the 1990's but the velocity window it occurred in was very small & not practical over most ranges I shot @ but dual load fantastic in certain situations

Now flip over the years & we have seen advancements in the mono industry for sure but until I came across hammers the basic principle which were correct & even the old gpa pill from those 90's needed speed as did the hammers I first used but lowered the needed velocity to get a result on a killing curve efficiency level ( broadly speaking impact speeds as all pills even in the same brand have own velocity impact sweetspots )

So now why were hammers a different kettle of fish as a basic mono they are & yet they still failed to outperform the very best frangibles @ the very low velocity impacts but potentially it was there & latter was proved it could get extremely close & even match but it took apex afterburner to show it could exceed the performance standard that the frangible held the crown on for years & once again not a one off it showed it multiple times

So apex is the bees knees right & will kill everything like that
yeah not correct

Yet you move that apex to the mid 2000's impacts & some of the frangible takes over again & some of the original hammers would be close to the frangible or exceed them ( these are all impact speeds & yes bc comes in here but let's not get that derailed lol ) now move those impacts to the 3k plus mark & the frangible is found it's progressing backwards on the killing efficiency curves ( sometimes it's incredibly spectacular but keep shooting is the key & you'll see the velocity impact sweetspot has been exceeded ) the hammer now entered into its own as reliability of producing a better shapecharge/bubble but today's hammers have no pop to the pill the same as the apex now move to ceb & you'll see exactly the same occur of no pop or as mcquire calls it the detonation point
& on the very few McGuire pills I've used I've seen snippets of the pop /detonation point occur & also saw this in badlands gen 1 but it was like the gpa of a very small window of occurrence

So the bar has definitely altered from a frangible being king ( in that 6.5 line I tested not saying all calibres all pills as testing would needed to be done to confirm as should be but the pattern is definitely there & apex done extremely well & consistently did it )

Now this hht stuff is not only hht it's also other lines but once again now we will see different interpretations of killing levels appear

so let's go this route
The level that hammer kills @ today is not what it once was so if that is still in one's wheelhouse of acceptable that's cool

To state that hammers have the same killing level today as yesterday's is false & how much more do I need to show

Cheers

Across the board ( low to high speed) you are saying that for a mono the apex ab's seem to work best for you?

 

[Petey308]

I don't shoot hammers. But I do have a sample back in the reload room. Just haven't ever loaded them. They came with some green tips in a seperate bag. With all this tip talk, what's the reasoning for them to send a bag of tips? Is there a gain one way or another when it comes to shooting with or without the tip? I'm pretty sure they are 168hh. I'd have to go look to be sure on that.

They send the tips separately because they don't have a way to do it themselves yet in their shop- so they say. I guess currently its not time well spent for them to do it themselves and they're waiting on a machine that will do it for them.

If they came with tips, they're intended to be used with them installed. There are other brands out there, like Cutting Edge, that has a line of bullets that are actually designed to be used with or without the tips, depending on your application. These aren't like those though.

 

[bigngreen]

So change in the tip across the board, the whole hammer line all of the sudden changed. First production Black tip vs a few months ago Green tip 182. I squished the poo out of the black tip cause I couldn't find any free range, really hard to get good pics of the black tip. So if there were all of the sudden a whole line change I must have missed it?

 

[bfarms]

They send the tips separately because they don't have a way to do it themselves yet in their shop- so they say. I guess currently its not time well spent for them to do it themselves and they're waiting on a machine that will do it for them.

If they came with tips, they're intended to be used with them installed. There are other brands out there, like Cutting Edge, that has a line of bullets that are actually designed to be used with or without the tips, depending on your application. These aren't like those though.

I am in no way saying you are wrong here. So don't take it that way. But if they were intended to be used with the tips only. Why wouldn't they say anything about it? I'd think they would say, be sure to install the tips before shooting somewhere on the bag or the box. They even sent a nice little installer with them lol. If I shoot them I will put them in. Thanks for the info, I just ordered them to see if the accuracy and speed hype lives up to its name.

 

[fordy]

Gday
Ok looks like I need to show some more
Stay tuned
I'll get to this after my meeting
Cheers

 

[Muddybuddy]

Wow, what a difference a year makes.

 

[hydehunter]

They send the tips separately because they don't have a way to do it themselves yet in their shop- so they say. I guess currently its not time well spent for them to do it themselves and they're waiting on a machine that will do it for them.

If they came with tips, they're intended to be used with them installed. There are other brands out there, like Cutting Edge, that has a line of bullets that are actually designed to be used with or without the tips, depending on your application. These aren't like those though.

the tips can be used if you want to, they do not need to be used. a lot of people complained that they did not have a higher BC so they started sending tips with a little tool to install them with. Can you image the cost to have someone sitting all day installing tips? if you do not want to shoot with the tips don't they still work great with out them, I can't believe some people are making a big deal out of them.

 

[Petey308]

the tips can be used if you want to, they do not need to be used. a lot of people complained that they did not have a higher BC so they started sending tips with a little tool to install them with. Can you image the cost to have someone sitting all day installing tips? if you do not want to shoot with the tips don't they still work great with out them, I can't believe some people are making a big deal out of them.

Obviously they can be used without them, but I have not read anything YET from Hammer to lead me to believe the HHT's are fully intended to be used without them installed. There's a difference between can be and intended to be.

 

[ButterBean]

So change in the tip across the board, the whole hammer line all of the sudden changed. First production Black tip vs a few months ago Green tip 182. I squished the poo out of the black tip cause I couldn't find any free range, really hard to get good pics of the black tip. So if there were all of the sudden a whole line change I must have missed it?
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