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Group Therapy - The Problem: How Accurate Is Your Rifle? By Denton Bramwell
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My son made a comment to me the other day that sort or rang a bell when you mentioned benchrest shooters being picky. We are working on a compact take down suppressed sub-sonic/super-sonic 14" barreled .308 briefcase rifle. CS5 is the model. A couple of months ago we sent it to Denver swat and they reported back that they were shooting the M118LR super-sonic ammo at 1400 yards.
This week we got word from a special forces group that was testing a CS5 that they were shooting sub-quarter minute groups at 300 yards with the Barnes developed 200 gr sub-sonic ammo we provided with the rifle.
Ryan, my son, a former Navy Seal with Team 2 and deployed to Iraq as sniper understands what a rifle is supposed to be able to do. He says to me "Stubby" our nickname for the rifle, "exists in an alternate universe!" I ask what he meant by that and said "it does things that are not possible in this universe."
If benchrest shooters can actually do what they say they can do when it comes to being able to tell whether an aluminum pillar adversely effects the way the rifles shoots as opposed to a G5 pillars, they too exist in an alternate universe, because I don't understand how it's possible. I will say one thing though, we made a batch of benchrest actions once that reportedly didn't shoot as well as the previous batch. After hours or pondering what could have possibly been different, we came to the conclusion that the only difference was the heat treat we used. Next batch we went back to the previous method and no complaints. Explain to me how the heat treat when the hardness is the same can effect how the action performs. Still a mystery.
This week we got word from a special forces group that was testing a CS5 that they were shooting sub-quarter minute groups at 300 yards with the Barnes developed 200 gr sub-sonic ammo we provided with the rifle.
Ryan, my son, a former Navy Seal with Team 2 and deployed to Iraq as sniper understands what a rifle is supposed to be able to do. He says to me "Stubby" our nickname for the rifle, "exists in an alternate universe!" I ask what he meant by that and said "it does things that are not possible in this universe."
If benchrest shooters can actually do what they say they can do when it comes to being able to tell whether an aluminum pillar adversely effects the way the rifles shoots as opposed to a G5 pillars, they too exist in an alternate universe, because I don't understand how it's possible. I will say one thing though, we made a batch of benchrest actions once that reportedly didn't shoot as well as the previous batch. After hours or pondering what could have possibly been different, we came to the conclusion that the only difference was the heat treat we used. Next batch we went back to the previous method and no complaints. Explain to me how the heat treat when the hardness is the same can effect how the action performs. Still a mystery.
It's a shame this thread got hijacked talking about bedding stocks! I just came here through a link from Wikipedia researching the subject for my own shooting use!
I think this just proves that the subject is too mind boggling for the average shooter!
McMillan, could it be possible that your heat-treat actions were just statistical anomalies? How many did you produce?
I like the anecdotes you mention, 1400yard shooting with sub-sonics (genius!) They must've been shooting from a helicopter or something! I wonder whether they were still hitting sub 1/4 MOA!
I think this just proves that the subject is too mind boggling for the average shooter!
McMillan, could it be possible that your heat-treat actions were just statistical anomalies? How many did you produce?
I like the anecdotes you mention, 1400yard shooting with sub-sonics (genius!) They must've been shooting from a helicopter or something! I wonder whether they were still hitting sub 1/4 MOA!
I am afraid you misunderstood me. I said the rifle was shot at 1400 yards using super-sonic ammunition, M118LR is the military designation for their standard .308 ammunition. The anecdote about the sub-sonic ammo was that they were able to shoot 1/4" groups at 300 yards. Do I need to explain anything else?
As for how many actions we have made, I suspect somewhere around 10,000 over the last 20 years. I doubt it is an anomaly.
As for how many actions we have made, I suspect somewhere around 10,000 over the last 20 years. I doubt it is an anomaly.
Ha ha, yes I did misread that bit, but still 1400 yards with a .308 would still require aiming at the sun (almost)!!
This C5 rifle sounds like an awesome bit of kit. I've just seen a picture of it, how does the sub to super sonic changeover work (if you're at liberty to divulge that information!) Are the scoped actions interchangeable a bit like the upper and lower receiver on AR variants?
I still wonder about the complaints around those actions though, what was the size of the batch that got complaints? And did they all go to benchrest shooters who used actions from previous batches so there could be a direct comparison? It could just be that the complaints you got just randomly occurred on that one batch. Like the one terrible group you shoot when all the others were cloverleafs but didn't do anything different. As you say, they were the same hardness so how could they be so different, of course the subtleties of molecular interactions in metals is another subject entirely!!!
I was only curious really, I have a great respect for McMillan and the great craftsmanship you provide, I'm in no way trying to have a dig at you or anything like that!
This C5 rifle sounds like an awesome bit of kit. I've just seen a picture of it, how does the sub to super sonic changeover work (if you're at liberty to divulge that information!) Are the scoped actions interchangeable a bit like the upper and lower receiver on AR variants?
I still wonder about the complaints around those actions though, what was the size of the batch that got complaints? And did they all go to benchrest shooters who used actions from previous batches so there could be a direct comparison? It could just be that the complaints you got just randomly occurred on that one batch. Like the one terrible group you shoot when all the others were cloverleafs but didn't do anything different. As you say, they were the same hardness so how could they be so different, of course the subtleties of molecular interactions in metals is another subject entirely!!!
I was only curious really, I have a great respect for McMillan and the great craftsmanship you provide, I'm in no way trying to have a dig at you or anything like that!
I finally realized that you were actually responding to a post for quite a while ago about our "benchrest" actions. I don't think there was anything "wrong". But when we changed the heat treat process on a couple we were told it made a difference. We just decided not to compete in the "benchrest" market, it's very difficult.
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
Kelly,
Great work! You've raised a question in my itty bitty mind. I shouldn't read your stuff so much.
Alum pillars vs G5 pillars. Is there something I should know?
Thanks
Great work! You've raised a question in my itty bitty mind. I shouldn't read your stuff so much.
Alum pillars vs G5 pillars. Is there something I should know?
Thanks
Unless you can give me a scientific explanation I would have to see the data that proves there is any difference between the two. I stand by what I posted in this thread a little earlier. Pillars do one thing and one thing only...........
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
Kelly,
Appreciate your prompt response. Stock in McMillan is raising rapidly.
Poor communications on my part. The bottom line that I am familiar with what a pillar is but have no idea of what G5 stands for.
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
Haagen Dazs
Well-Known Member
Wow, this article is exactly what i was looking for. I've always been trying to display my hit probability in terms of 19 times out of twenty but never read about someone doing the math!
I am one of your readers who is very interested in seeing your spreadsheets. As an engineer I am naturally attracted to equations and spreadsheets, sending you an email at [email protected].
Thank-you again! Definately going to share this to whoever has quesitons about how to better describe group sizing.
Kevin
I am one of your readers who is very interested in seeing your spreadsheets. As an engineer I am naturally attracted to equations and spreadsheets, sending you an email at [email protected].
Thank-you again! Definately going to share this to whoever has quesitons about how to better describe group sizing.
Kevin
im getting 1/4 to 1/2 at 3-400 yrs and 3- 3 1/2 at 1,000 yrds in most of the guns i build
