Gain additional velocity by shooting prone ...

[cjl2010]

No opinion either way, frank is a wealth of knowledge and I doubt he would make **** up for the fun of it.

 

[WildRose]

More like snake oil... I'm not buying into this crap. I think the editor is just getting standard ammo deviations through his chrono, or his cheek weld position has changed from bench to prone, and thinks he's discovered some profound new level of physics...

Did yall read the comments in the YT video? It's amazing how many sheeple there are that hang on these people's every word like it's the Gospel.

Probably not. When shooting from the bench the body offers very little resistance unless you are really leaning in and digging in with your feet for traction.

Shooting from the prone, your entire body weight plus the traction of your body pressed to the ground is resisting the rifle.
Less energy then is consumed pushing you backwards and ends up being added to the push against the bullet so no doubt there is some small increase in velocity.

Enough to matter? No.

 

[WildRose]

No opinion either way, frank is a wealth of knowledge and I doubt he would make ---- up for the fun of it.

He doesn't. Unless he was convinced he'd proven it to himself he wouldn't put it out there as fact.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Probably not. When shooting from the bench the body offers very little resistance unless you are really leaning in and digging in with your feet for traction.

Shooting from the prone, your entire body weight plus the traction of your body pressed to the ground is resisting the rifle.
Less energy then is consumed pushing you backwards and ends up being added to the push against the bullet so no doubt there is some small increase in velocity.

Enough to matter? No.

Well, I don't know how yall do it, but I try to put the same shoulder pressure, same cheek weld, same cheek pressure, same trigger pull every time, regardless of shooting position... My velocities should be identical from the bench and prone. Maybe I'm a bit more trained at that from spending 2/3 of my life shooting archery, and spending a couple years shooting ASA & IBO tournaments. If you deviate ANY or flinch ANY (no matter how small) when shooting archery, it's exponentially magnified on target. Looking back now, I was always a naturally decent shot, but it was around that same timeframe that my rifle shooting got substantially better, as well. Maybe all that archery discipline really did help.

I would guess the 20 FPS difference was just load deviation, and the 3/8" POI shift was cheek weld/holding pressure.

 

[NEMTHunter]

Load testing one was 119 grains and the other was 120 grains of powder. About 30fps difference between the two. 1" sticker @102 yards. The upper right whole was the 120 grain charge.

Sorry for the fuzzy picture. Its from a flip phone.. yea I know... Old school yet...

 

[WildRose]

Well, I don't know how yall do it, but I try to put the same shoulder pressure, same cheek weld, same cheek pressure, same trigger pull every time, regardless of shooting position... My velocities should be identical from the bench and prone. Maybe I'm a bit more trained at that from spending 2/3 of my life shooting archery, and spending a couple years shooting ASA & IBO tournaments. If you deviate ANY or flinch ANY (no matter how small) when shooting archery, it's exponentially magnified on target. Looking back now, I was always a naturally decent shot, but it was around that same timeframe that my rifle shooting got substantially better, as well. Maybe all that archery discipline really did help.

I would guess the 20 FPS difference was just load deviation, and the 3/8" POI shift was cheek weld/holding pressure.

Think of it this way MR.

Walk up to your couch and push it from one end.

Walk up to it and push it back while facing it.

There is much more resistance lengthwise.

Add to that the traction your entire body has when laying on the ground vs sitting on a chair with no back to brace against.

Like I said, I get the theory, but even if it's 20fps consistently that isn't enough to make any significant difference downrange.

For consistency it's certainly best to use the same position each time but in reality that's frequently not possible in the field.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Think of it this way MR.

Walk up to your couch and push it from one end.

Walk up to it and push it back while facing it.

There is much more resistance lengthwise.

Add to that the traction your entire body has when laying on the ground vs sitting on a chair with no back to brace against.

Like I said, I get the theory, but even if it's 20fps consistently that isn't enough to make any significant difference downrange.

For consistency it's certainly best to use the same position each time but in reality that's frequently not possible in the field.

I get the theory and physics behind the theory, and I get what you're saying, but I still think if he was holding with the same pressure in both positions, then there wouldn't be any difference...Therefor, his theory of gaining more velocity form a prone position is bunk.

 

[HARPERC]

I believe-it's not a new discussion.

I think the point is identification of some of the variables we chase. Does the 20 matter? If it offsets some of the other variables life is good, when those variables accumulate-not so much.

If one is chasing single digit ES, and wants to continually assume it's all on the load, and rifle side, when a piece of it is on the shooter side, it makes it a harder nut to crack.

 

[WildRose]

I get the theory and physics behind the theory, and I get what you're saying, but I still think if he was holding with the same pressure in both positions, then there wouldn't be any difference...Therefor, his theory of gaining more velocity form a prone position is bunk.

It's more than the hold, it's the amount of resistance against the butt. Figure in a sitting position you offer about 60lbs resistance for a guy his size vs over 200lbs when laying prone since your entire body is offering resistance plus the grip the ground has on you.

I know Frank pretty well, he would not put that out if he wasn't sure it is true.

 

[CJS-6.5]

At any rate it is another excuse for missing. I was prone so that's why I overshot...

 

[WildRose]

At any rate it is another excuse for missing. I was prone so that's why I overshot...

No, it removes the excuse assuming you're shooting PD's at a 1,000yds because that's how little it matters.

 

[Timnterra]

I watched that video about a year ago and it made a lot of sense to me. I do load development over a benchrest set up with a front rest and solid rear bag. I usually let the rifle free recoil unless it's recoil is too unmanageable. When shooting prone I line up straight behind the rifle on a bipod with a soft rear bag. There is little to no pressure from my shoulder on the rifle on the bench. However, when in the prone I load the bipod by lifting my chest and allowing my weight to push the rifle forward, loading the bipod, as I settle back to the ground. I can see how the added resistance would add potential velocity. However if a person isn't free recoiling the rifle the difference would be very minimal.

 

[HARPERC]

I have missed-and analyzing misses is part of the deal. This particular factor is about changes caused by inconsistent hold by the shooter. Holding one self accountable for these inconsistencies, instead of placing them all on the rifle isn't excuse making to me, but to each his own.

 

[Greyfox]

I think the general notion of variation in POI and velocity changes due to rifle hold and shooting position has validity, but, IMO, there are more variables effecting this then the video suggests. Because of the multitude of different positions and contortions built into the typical PRS Match, consistent shooting form is critical, but a braked, light recoiling round(6.5x47L) in a 16+ pound rifle with a highly tunable stock(geometry) goes a long way in minimizing the positional effects on POI. On the other hand, with my lighter, heavier recoiling hunting rifles, a consistent shooting form remains critical, but due to the rifle geometry and lighter weight, I'm generally about .5MOA higher POI in non-prone positions, and will have to apply this correction, particularly at the longer ranges. Considering the target sizes in both sports, a 20FPS ES(SD, 5-10)in velocity is more then sufficient for the minimum target areas encountered. I have been playing around with a "hybrid" hunting rifle that has many of the attributes of my chassis based PRS rifles....an "attempt" to improve shootability and minimize the effects of different shooting positions, while still being a manageable hunting rig.