? for Kirby and other reloading guru's

[Dan B]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

[ QUOTE ]
using rem brass as per rays instructions, I dug out the cases which ray sent with the dies and the necks are .012" but all mine are .015" even the 50 win brass that I have fireformed.

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Are his cases RP also? That's quite a variation and could be the cause of your pressure issues.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

yes they are
JS

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

I would not trash your corn meal formed cases. No need. If his chambering reamer is set up to use cases with 12 thou thick necks and yours are 15 thou, I think you may have found the problem. Turn them to 12 thou as his cases are and see what happens.

Forming with Corn meal will not hurt cases in any way. Not sure where he is getting that from but its not true.

I will also say that Winchester cases are harder then Rem cases and will take a bit more pressure before primer pockets loosen. They are also easier to trim and chamfer because the harder brass alloy cuts cleaner then the softer Rem brass.

Both will work, just get your necks to the same thickness as his. You are 3 thou over in neck thickness, thats 6 thou larger in total loaded neck diameter, thats ALOT of difference in the neck diameter!!!

Start there and see what you get.

Rl-22 and H-4831 are so similiar its hard to tell them apart in performance. Lot to Lot variances may have some slight differences but on average they will produce nearly identical performance levels.

I would also not be to concerned about going over listed charges with H-1000 as long as you are not seeing any pressure issues. H-1000 may be a better choice in your rifle to keep pressures under control a bit better.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Coyboy]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

[ QUOTE ]
James, you are correct in your thinking. The tight necks are most likly the culprit in you high pressure signs.

I would turn the necks down 3 thousandths of and inch (.003) total neck diameter. So you would only take .0015 off of the actual neck wall. Try that and see how it works.

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James, Does your loaded cases with .015 thick neck walls chamber hard? If you chamber and eject a cartridge can you see any marks on the neck where it is being marred by the chambers neck diameter? Have you done a chamber casting yet?
Try smoking a neck and run it through and see how that looks.

I would look at these things before I turned a full .006 off my neck diameter. It's hard to put the brass back on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I would think that if you were .001-.002 over in neck dia. you would have to feel the resistance when closing the bolt. I would try to get a handle on my neck dia. before I went through all the turning. That or turn just a couple of cases to start.

Good luck, Jim

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

Coyboy,

Let me clarify, I did not mean to come across as telling James to turn 6 thou off his necks. It is 6 thou total in neck diameter larger then what his smiths cases would be, thats total diameter, not radius.

I would also only recommend turning a couple cases, taking 1/2 thou off at a time and shooting them to see if this solves your problem with pressure.

To be honest, I think the main culprit is a neck fit that is a bit tighter then his smiths loads were and a barrel that is probably tighter then most resulting in lower velocity potential.

Again, if you can get 3200 fps with H-1000, you are where you need to be in velocity, you should not really get any more then this in a 29" 6.5 Gibbs dispite what some will tell you.

Again, a 6.5-06 AI will get around 3075 to 3100 fps in a 30" barrel with top loads so you are there with the Gibbs with anything in the 3100-3200 fps range with the 140 gr pills.

TO be honest, after getting the neck fit a bit better, I think this is really a non problem. It seems the expected velocity is a bit more then what practical velocity may turn out to be.

Again, my comments about the 6 thou was concerning the loaded neck diameter of a case with 15 thou thick necks compared to those cases with 12 thou thick necks. It was not in reference to how much should be turned off the neck thickness.

One thing to check as well, measure the diameter of those fired cases with 12 thou thick necks and then size one and seat a bullet. I suspect the difference will be quite a bit. Alot more then the 1.5 to 2 thou that you want in total diameter clearance anyway.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Coyboy]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

Kirby, I didn't think that you wanted him to turn them down to .012 wall thickness. Sometimes what we type dosen't come out just right. I've been there. I just wasn't sure how he took your post and wanted to be sure he didn't do something drastic.

I agree his velocity is probably where it should be, but blowing that many primers with a recomended load is probably due to a tight neck. He should be able to figure it out soon. I ran my .264 win mag at the 3100 mark with the 140's 26" tube this was at a book max load and no hotter.

By the way it's been a while since I heard a baby update. Walking? talking?

 

[Ridge Runner]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

kirby and coy, I understand what your saying, a case neck turner is on the way and I'll experiment a bit and see what I can come up with.
What has me puzzled is the fact that the smith could tell me over the phone to fireform a case with 54 gr of H4831 and a 140 gr, then take that case resize and reload with 62 gr of RE22 and a 140 and shoot it, I've worked up to 61 gr of RE22 which gave me 3270 fps but has ruined every case that I fired,
Actualy with any of the reccomended powders for the gibbs (IMR 4831 and 7828, H4831, RE22) if I got to 3100 fpa with a 140 the pocket is noticably loose. I mean what would FF'ing with COW vs. pdr/bullet change that much? He said 62 gr of RE 22 was the standard load and 64 gr was max. he also stated the cut rifled barrel might be a tad slower but I shouldn't have pressure problems.
My R-P cases do have thicker necks than the test R-P cases he sent but he said I shouldn't have to turn them. and fired case necks mic the same as loaded rounds, you have to press hard to put a bullet into a fired case neck, where all my other rounds, the bullet will fall into a fired case.
I achieved 3200 fps with H-1000 but accuracy isn't as good as with RE-22 when its too hot (.375 vs. .6) max load (that I can find published is 62 gr of H-1000, and I'm at 63 gr. shooting plain A-max's, with moly'd a-max's I was at 66 gr @ 3050 fps. when the turner comes in I'll turn the necks down on a couple cases .0015 and see what that does. thanks for your comments
JS

 

[Dan B]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

James...tight case necks can go a LONG way to creating excessive pressure. Can you push a bullet into the neck of a fired case that has NOT been resized?

But as Kirby says...shoot what the GUN likes. I stated way earlier and it has been reinforced by others that sometimes ego's and bad data get in the way of true carridge performance. It seems that this may be perfect example of that problem!

As to the COW vs bullet firing methods of forming cases...I've done both methods with the same guns on multiple occassions and never had a problem. COW may leave the shoulder slightly rounded but it should be at least 95% formed...enough to start the beginning stages of load development. I love this method...gets all my cases formed and saves a trip to the range and LOTS of $$ in components.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

Coyboy,

Not to hijack anything but the little one is growing like a weed and making all kinds of noise!!! No walking yet, only a bit over 4 months!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

James,

I would really not get hung up on velocity to much. Shoot where the accuracy is best and pressures are comfortable once you get the case neck fit right.

If your 50 fps under what you are supposed to be or even 100 fps less, that will really mean nothing at long range. Its consistancy and accuracy that makes everything work down range, not 50 or 100 fps more velocity.

What velocity is your smith telling you you should be able to reach?

Also, did he actually test that load in your specific rifle or is this just a load that has "always worked for him in the past" type of recommendations.

Velocity output differences can be huge from one rifle to another even with same length barrel and using the same load. Mainly due to barrel to barrel variations, bore diameter mainly.

In my testing, having to tight of a neck fit will usually cause your pressures to spike noticably sharper but it is intersting that in many cases, once you get the neck fit corrected, top velocity potential really does not increase all that much. What changes is your case life and the ability of your cases to be used much longer.

Now if you load them back up to where they are loosening again, certainly you will get more velocity but the point is to get long case life, or at least usible case life anyway.

Keep us posted with your results.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Ridge Runner]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

coy, if I take a loaded round and a fired unsized one it takes alot of effort to force the fired case over the bullet of the fired one, there is no way I could push a bullet in it by hand, my turner arived today, I turned 6 cases to .012 neck thickness, it took alot of effore to get the case on the .264 mandrel. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

Kirby,
I understand that I might not get the velocity that others get, but the rifle shoots well with re22, it was punching 3/8's groups while ruining cases.
All I would like to see is 3150 or so with decent case life with some accuracy potential, at 3200 with H1000 about .6" is all I've gotten out of it, I'll let ya know how it goes.
JS

 

[HoytemanPA]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

[ QUOTE ]
I turned 6 cases to .012 neck thickness, it took alot of effore to get the case on the .264 mandrel. I'll keep you posted.

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James,
Just thought I would mention I ruined my mandrel a couple of weeks ago, which was the first time I had ever turned fired cases. It started bonding brass to the mandrel. I tried polishing it back and it did it again after the second case I did. Something to watch for. Did you use the expander mandrel on them?

When I ruined mine, It was even after running them through the expander mandrel. I ended up polishing the inside of the necks first and then running them through the expander mandrel twice before I did anymore with the new turner mandrel. I used Imperial for lube. New brass sure is much easier to do.
Good luck with the 6.5.
Shummy

 

[Ridge Runner]

Re: ? for Kirby and other reloading guru\'s

yeah, brass will gall onto the mandrel if ya don't lube it, my cases turned out very well. I also ff'd a couple rounds with 54 gr of H4831 and a 140 gr, those necks are .012-.013.
So what I've saw so far is this ff'ing with COW/unique pushes brass from the case body to form the shoulder, while using a bullet/powder charge pulls some from the neck.
I have those 3 rounds which I ff'd with bullets loaded with 62 gr re22 and a 140 a-max (as per the smiths instructions) pouring rain here so will shoot one round today and see if it deprimes on ejection, the other 2 I'll chrony as soon as the storm moves out.
JS