AJ Peacock
Well-Known Member
I built an Edge on a short action Savage. I use it single shot and just pull the bolt to extract a loaded round.
AJ
AJ
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fastest 338 caliber?Build advice?
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BH,
The 338 Big Baer, 338 Sniper Tac and 338 Extreme are all so similiar that they are about as identical as they can get without chambering each other. The differences are extremely slight but performance identical.
The 338 Chey Tac is the most unimproved of the lot.
My 338 AM has the shoulder location moved forward and steeper shoulder angle for the most case capacity of the bunch.
As you said, They are all accurate but you imply that Bruce is the only one that can build an accurate 338 on the 408 case. I respect Bruce tremendously but I assure you there are many out there building extreme accuracy 338 wildcats on the 408 case. I have built several dozen myself.
Kirby
Don't get your panties in a wad!
There a lot of cartridges that might be fast.
In fact, I recently watched 3 top notch shooters shoot one of the three you mentioned above as being an extreme accuracy cartridge and they could not keep groups under 3-4 ft at one mile, while they shot sub MOA (5shot) with other guns. So pretty sure I would not classify it as an "extreme accuracy" round, at least not as it is currently being produced and marketed with its proprietary ammo for sure.
As for "implying" that Bruce is the only one that can build an extreme accuracy gun, not really. Are you being overly sensitive because I did not toot your horn?
However, I was stating factually that he does build an extreme accuracy gun and has for a long time and that is without question.I asure you and particularily the newbies here, that that great smiths exist off this board and do it just as well, maybe closer to the customer and maybe even not as expensive. That is information that people have a right to know.
BH
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
BH,
Why would you "toot my horn"? You have no experience with any of my products so you would have no basis for an opinion.
I know Bruce, and know of his reputation which is very well earned. He is truely one of the great minds and smiths in our sport so don't even try to pull me into that trap.
I could name 5-6 smiths on this site alone that can make a sub 1 moa, 1760 yard rifle every day of the week and I know for a fact there are probably hundreds of them in the country that can do this as well that we do not even know their names, I also know there are many very well known smiths out there that can do the same thing.
Not sure why you want to make me look like a snob, perhaps you believe I am, not sure, you have always had some beef with me for some reason, not sure why but so be it.
As far as price, I assure you, I am far less expensive then many of the other top smiths out there AS are most of the other smiths on this board. For quality work at a reasonable price, you wouldbe hard pressed to have a better selection of fine smiths then are on LRH and a better group of guys you will never find. That is not to discredit anyone else and their work or their experience which many have far more then me and I fully understand this and respect this. As far as time frame, many of the big name smiths can get rifles out faster for one reason, they either keep their work load down to a limited number OR they have several employees in the shop working collectively on rifles. Most of the smiths on LRH are one man shops so they may have a longer back log then some of the bigger shops, that is for sure. I have been contacted by many of them telling me that I should really increase my prices.
I often get a kick out of those that seem to think that unless your shooting competition with your rifles or if noone else is shooting comp with your rifles, they must not be any good. Thats fine with me. I do not shoot competition, does not do much for me but to those that do, more power to them, its a great way to get exposure and get your name out there. In my area, there are very few competition matches of any kind so I simply rely on my hunters to promote my rifles and they do a **** good job. More then enough to keep me piled up with work.
I am sure Bruces loyal customers keep him hoping as well as they should, he builds great rifles. I just do not understand why you would think you have to try to pit me against him in some way or that I would be offended in any way that you did not endorse me. Again, you have no experience at all with any of my products so you would not have an opinion to share about them so I would not expect you to offer any promotion of my products. Make sense???
Nuff said, no need to step into another of your silly traps.
Why would you "toot my horn"? You have no experience with any of my products so you would have no basis for an opinion.
I know Bruce, and know of his reputation which is very well earned. He is truely one of the great minds and smiths in our sport so don't even try to pull me into that trap.
I could name 5-6 smiths on this site alone that can make a sub 1 moa, 1760 yard rifle every day of the week and I know for a fact there are probably hundreds of them in the country that can do this as well that we do not even know their names, I also know there are many very well known smiths out there that can do the same thing.
Not sure why you want to make me look like a snob, perhaps you believe I am, not sure, you have always had some beef with me for some reason, not sure why but so be it.
As far as price, I assure you, I am far less expensive then many of the other top smiths out there AS are most of the other smiths on this board. For quality work at a reasonable price, you wouldbe hard pressed to have a better selection of fine smiths then are on LRH and a better group of guys you will never find. That is not to discredit anyone else and their work or their experience which many have far more then me and I fully understand this and respect this. As far as time frame, many of the big name smiths can get rifles out faster for one reason, they either keep their work load down to a limited number OR they have several employees in the shop working collectively on rifles. Most of the smiths on LRH are one man shops so they may have a longer back log then some of the bigger shops, that is for sure. I have been contacted by many of them telling me that I should really increase my prices.
I often get a kick out of those that seem to think that unless your shooting competition with your rifles or if noone else is shooting comp with your rifles, they must not be any good. Thats fine with me. I do not shoot competition, does not do much for me but to those that do, more power to them, its a great way to get exposure and get your name out there. In my area, there are very few competition matches of any kind so I simply rely on my hunters to promote my rifles and they do a **** good job. More then enough to keep me piled up with work.
I am sure Bruces loyal customers keep him hoping as well as they should, he builds great rifles. I just do not understand why you would think you have to try to pit me against him in some way or that I would be offended in any way that you did not endorse me. Again, you have no experience at all with any of my products so you would not have an opinion to share about them so I would not expect you to offer any promotion of my products. Make sense???
Nuff said, no need to step into another of your silly traps.
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Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Seems you have made it your mission to try to steer people away from forum sponsors.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/chamber-concentricity-37273/
This has been a long time habit of yours. Businesses pay money for sponsorship in anticipation of a return on their investment. When a forum member such as yourself makes it their sole reason for coming to the forum to try to prevent people from buying goods and services from forum sponsors then there is an issue.
hammertyme
Well-Known Member
To add to what AJ has said, Savage is one action one does not have to remove the bolt all the way in the Savage to extract the case. They(Savage) also have a modified baffle which allows a company using the Savage action to extract the RUM case. I have this on my 338 X 378.
Though I haven't a gun from these smiths, I have seen the work of Kirby Allen and have friends with guns made by others here on this site. There are any number of super over qualified smiths here than can pretty much do anything with a mill and a lathe. Extremely gifted at the cutting edge in the industry. Being a machinist myself I feel qualified in giving these guys a thumbs up.
Neal
Though I haven't a gun from these smiths, I have seen the work of Kirby Allen and have friends with guns made by others here on this site. There are any number of super over qualified smiths here than can pretty much do anything with a mill and a lathe. Extremely gifted at the cutting edge in the industry. Being a machinist myself I feel qualified in giving these guys a thumbs up.
Neal
BB
Seems you want to get self rightous and pompous here. We had smiths here that "advertised" daily on this board for 3 years before they became a sponsor and not one word was said by you, so get off that high horse because that is gross hypocrisay. Looks like they got a hell of a return on no investment because of you and others. Now you suddenly get rightous or something?
I believe it is smart to work with a smith that you can see face to face in most instances. Now if that smith is on this board fine, if not then it is stupid to work with one across the US just because he has bought a sponsorship. There are a lot of very good smiths here and other places, along with good products. Why should someone not be given all the information to choose from instead of only "selected information" as you are advocating now?
Now if Len wants to make a "rule" that ONLY sponsors and their products can be talked about here and in PMs then lets see it and I will abide. Which by the way is Lens call not yours. If he does not, then you recommend who you want and I will recommend who I think they might be interested in.
Seems that we have talked about NF, Leupold and others for years before they became a sponsor. Was that wrong and why did you not speak up then and demand that everyone stop talking about them?
Len has now got several people that I have recommended for a long time and talked to about this board and becoming sponsors. Others are watching and seeing if it is going to be worthwhile or are references limited to only a favored few like you want, which is a long time habit and preference of yours.
BH
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Given that there are reasonable options that I have personal knowledge of, I try to recommend either a sponsor or a forum member because these are the people who provide advice and help to us all. I do not make it my business to try to deliberately steer forum members away from sponsors and/or members here.
BB
I agree with what you are saying. I have to have the personal knowledge of dealing with them (or from someone I trust implicitly) most importantly if I am going to recommend them.
Like I said, I think it is smart to get face to face with a smith (at least the first time) to discuss what you want, how and to determine are you comfortable with this smith and they way they do business.
That does not mean I try to steer away, and in fact I have and will continue to recommend board members and others that I know if they fit the bill for what someone is looking for... particularily if they are local to the person.
To me, a reasonable option is two top notch LR smiths within 100 miles and one 200 miles of someone versus mailing/insuring a gun (both ways) 2500 miles. That is what my PM said, it did not knock anyone.
By the way, glad to see that we can again recommend forum members even if they are not a sponsor.
BH
L
Lightvarmint
Guest
BB,
I agree whole heartedly and now I will plug one of the sponsors of this website............
What it all boils down to is what bullet are you planning to shoot?
For instance, you can take a .338 Lapua Improved with a 265 grain HAT (BC of .910 based on Eddybo's drop testing) at 3245 fps and significantly out perform a cheytac-based case if it is launching the 300 SMK (.768 BC) at say the industry standard 3250..... All this and using 40 grains or so less powder.
However, if the cheytac-based case uses the same bullets like Eddybo does, then it will beat the 338 Lapua improved. So in short, unless the cheytac-based case is shooting the HATS, a .338 Lapua Improved with the HATS will surpass its performance.
With that said, now it is down to the brass available and the number of uses you get out of each and how much powder you are willing to ignite to launch your bullets.
Almost forgot....... Just think, given the 265s are .9++ (based on Eddybo's drop tests) imagine what the 280s (1.00 ish) and the 300s (1.100 ish) will be..... Absolutely outta sight!!!! Wow, all that perfomrance improvement without having to go to the cheytac-based cases...... We will know for sure on the exact numbers for the BCs shortly after the next test batch arrives from the peach state..........
Nowadays, it might be better to pick the bullet before picking the case.............
Happy New Year.
Lightvarmint
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
LV,
You bring up valid points, to some degree but you out a pretty low velocity limit on the big 338s. I have no experience with the others but am a bit familiar with my 338 AM. In a 33" barrel, its no trick at all to push a 300 gr SMK to 3400 fps. So lets look at the numbers with that comparision compared to a 338 Improved which my 338 AX is very similiar to as well, and again, a GREAT round.
Here are the numbers out to 2000 yards for the 338 AM with 300 gr SMK at 3400 fps w/ a 500 yard zero
Yards....................Velocity..................Energy...........Drop
500.......................2856......................5433..............5.5 moa
1000.....................2374......................3752..............15.5
1500.....................1943......................2514..............29.0
2000.....................1565......................1631..............46.75
here are the same numbers for the 338 AI with 265 gr AT at 3250 fps
500.......................2779......................4544..............6.0
1000.....................2354......................3261..............16.75
1500.....................1971......................2285..............30.25
2000.....................1628......................1559..............48.0
As you can see, the 338 AI does pretty well but it WILL not match the 338 AM in any catagory out to 2000 yards except in velocity at ranges past around 1400 yards or so. Drop is less for the the big 338 AM and energy is also better.
What always kills me is how those that come up with new ideas to better smaller rounds do not think to put that same technology into the larger rounds. I have shot the 265 gr Hats a bit in my 338 AM. They shot well but I did have two that mysteriously did not make it to the target which does not impress me. They were the original design however and expansion was not consistant at all, still, for the ones that I shot for accuracy results on paper, they did shoot very well. I drove them to 3550 fps and did not get as high of a BC as you are reporting. It was close however at around .88-.89 at that velocity.
I did test the prototype 265 gr Wildcat AT RBBTs and they produced a bullet drop derived BC of .960. Since the Wildcat bullets are in limbo for now until the business starts up under new owners, lets use your numbers for the HAT bullets on my 338 AM. Again, 500 yard zero, 3550 fps.
500 yards...................3045 fps..............5455 ft/lns..............4.75 moa
1000...........................2596....................3961......................13.75
1500...........................2187....................2815......................25.0
2000...........................1821....................1951......................39.25
Absolutely no comparision at all in any way. So the same advantage that the modern bullets gives to the smaller chamberings, it also gives to the big boys. So yes, you can say that a 338 AI shooting these high BC bullets can come close to matching a 338 AM using conventional bullets but with both are compared using the same bullet, there is NO comparision at all.
Another aspect, if your looking at the extreme range shooting ability. To be extreme range is past a mile until the bullet drops below super sonic velocity. My 338 AM with the HAT bullets will give you super sonic velocity out to around 3375 yards at my 3500 ft elevation. The 338 Lapua Improved will do very well and will carry super sonic velocity to right around 3000 yards. Both a hell of a long way for sure but for those wanting the longest reach possible, the 338 AM class rounds with the new bullets will get you nearly a 1/4 mile more reach with super sonic velocity and no worries of bullet stability.
This is all on paper mind you. I have tested the Wildcat AT RBBTs to 3008 yards and they easily held 1 moa at that range in my standard weight 19 lb 338 AM so obviously velocity is well over Super sonic velocity at that range.
I would agree that the new bullets turn the smaller rounds into very high performance rounds, but they take the big magnums to an even higher level of performance, never before seen. I am not aware of any shoulder fired conventional rifle that will hold super sonic velocity over 3300 yards in a 33" barreled 19 lb rifle.
Anyway, you bring up good points but they are better served to those that already have a Lapua, or RUM or Edge or Lapua Improved or AX or Ultra Maxx and want a bit more performance. If someone is looking to buy a new rifle and want the ultimate in 338 performance, they may or may not be better served to go with the larger 408 based rounds. Rifle cost is nearly identical, in fact in some cases, the larger calibers can be no more then the conventional rifles in any way.
Brass is not terribly different, especially if you have to form the Lapua wildcats your self. 408 brass is basically the same price as Lapua brass. Maybe not quite as good quality but plenty good for 4-5 firings at top end pressures and obviously they are accurate enough to get the job done at long range.
I think it comes down to which chambering fits your needs better. If your going to be shooting or hunting out to a 800-1200 yard range, there is no need to go larger then the 338 Edge, Lapua class chamberings. IF you are serious about pushing past 1500 yards and especially past a mile, and are serious about it, you WILL get better performance with the big 408 CT based rounds and they will make hits easier at those ranges.
You are correct however, if someone already has a medium level 338, they can give it a hell of a boost in ballistic performance is they start using the new modern bullet designs over the 300 gr SMK and especially those like the 250 gr SMK.
I certainly do not want to pick any fight with this post, just want to show that what these bullets do for the smaller chamberings, they also do for the big boys as well. Thats the only reason for my post.
Hell, I would like to see a 250 gr bullet as long as the Wildcat 265 gr AT RBBT with an aluminum insert that extends down much farther into the case body so we could break over that 3600 fps level with mild pressures and BC numbers in the mid .9 range. That would be special!!!
Imagine super sonic velocity out past 2 miles!!!!! Thats what we need next.
That and a reasonably priced range finder that would let us range this far consistantly!!! LOL
Good points.
You bring up valid points, to some degree but you out a pretty low velocity limit on the big 338s. I have no experience with the others but am a bit familiar with my 338 AM. In a 33" barrel, its no trick at all to push a 300 gr SMK to 3400 fps. So lets look at the numbers with that comparision compared to a 338 Improved which my 338 AX is very similiar to as well, and again, a GREAT round.
Here are the numbers out to 2000 yards for the 338 AM with 300 gr SMK at 3400 fps w/ a 500 yard zero
Yards....................Velocity..................Energy...........Drop
500.......................2856......................5433..............5.5 moa
1000.....................2374......................3752..............15.5
1500.....................1943......................2514..............29.0
2000.....................1565......................1631..............46.75
here are the same numbers for the 338 AI with 265 gr AT at 3250 fps
500.......................2779......................4544..............6.0
1000.....................2354......................3261..............16.75
1500.....................1971......................2285..............30.25
2000.....................1628......................1559..............48.0
As you can see, the 338 AI does pretty well but it WILL not match the 338 AM in any catagory out to 2000 yards except in velocity at ranges past around 1400 yards or so. Drop is less for the the big 338 AM and energy is also better.
What always kills me is how those that come up with new ideas to better smaller rounds do not think to put that same technology into the larger rounds. I have shot the 265 gr Hats a bit in my 338 AM. They shot well but I did have two that mysteriously did not make it to the target which does not impress me. They were the original design however and expansion was not consistant at all, still, for the ones that I shot for accuracy results on paper, they did shoot very well. I drove them to 3550 fps and did not get as high of a BC as you are reporting. It was close however at around .88-.89 at that velocity.
I did test the prototype 265 gr Wildcat AT RBBTs and they produced a bullet drop derived BC of .960. Since the Wildcat bullets are in limbo for now until the business starts up under new owners, lets use your numbers for the HAT bullets on my 338 AM. Again, 500 yard zero, 3550 fps.
500 yards...................3045 fps..............5455 ft/lns..............4.75 moa
1000...........................2596....................3961......................13.75
1500...........................2187....................2815......................25.0
2000...........................1821....................1951......................39.25
Absolutely no comparision at all in any way. So the same advantage that the modern bullets gives to the smaller chamberings, it also gives to the big boys. So yes, you can say that a 338 AI shooting these high BC bullets can come close to matching a 338 AM using conventional bullets but with both are compared using the same bullet, there is NO comparision at all.
Another aspect, if your looking at the extreme range shooting ability. To be extreme range is past a mile until the bullet drops below super sonic velocity. My 338 AM with the HAT bullets will give you super sonic velocity out to around 3375 yards at my 3500 ft elevation. The 338 Lapua Improved will do very well and will carry super sonic velocity to right around 3000 yards. Both a hell of a long way for sure but for those wanting the longest reach possible, the 338 AM class rounds with the new bullets will get you nearly a 1/4 mile more reach with super sonic velocity and no worries of bullet stability.
This is all on paper mind you. I have tested the Wildcat AT RBBTs to 3008 yards and they easily held 1 moa at that range in my standard weight 19 lb 338 AM so obviously velocity is well over Super sonic velocity at that range.
I would agree that the new bullets turn the smaller rounds into very high performance rounds, but they take the big magnums to an even higher level of performance, never before seen. I am not aware of any shoulder fired conventional rifle that will hold super sonic velocity over 3300 yards in a 33" barreled 19 lb rifle.
Anyway, you bring up good points but they are better served to those that already have a Lapua, or RUM or Edge or Lapua Improved or AX or Ultra Maxx and want a bit more performance. If someone is looking to buy a new rifle and want the ultimate in 338 performance, they may or may not be better served to go with the larger 408 based rounds. Rifle cost is nearly identical, in fact in some cases, the larger calibers can be no more then the conventional rifles in any way.
Brass is not terribly different, especially if you have to form the Lapua wildcats your self. 408 brass is basically the same price as Lapua brass. Maybe not quite as good quality but plenty good for 4-5 firings at top end pressures and obviously they are accurate enough to get the job done at long range.
I think it comes down to which chambering fits your needs better. If your going to be shooting or hunting out to a 800-1200 yard range, there is no need to go larger then the 338 Edge, Lapua class chamberings. IF you are serious about pushing past 1500 yards and especially past a mile, and are serious about it, you WILL get better performance with the big 408 CT based rounds and they will make hits easier at those ranges.
You are correct however, if someone already has a medium level 338, they can give it a hell of a boost in ballistic performance is they start using the new modern bullet designs over the 300 gr SMK and especially those like the 250 gr SMK.
I certainly do not want to pick any fight with this post, just want to show that what these bullets do for the smaller chamberings, they also do for the big boys as well. Thats the only reason for my post.
Hell, I would like to see a 250 gr bullet as long as the Wildcat 265 gr AT RBBT with an aluminum insert that extends down much farther into the case body so we could break over that 3600 fps level with mild pressures and BC numbers in the mid .9 range. That would be special!!!
Imagine super sonic velocity out past 2 miles!!!!! Thats what we need next.
That and a reasonably priced range finder that would let us range this far consistantly!!! LOL
Good points.
hammertyme
Well-Known Member
Thank you Kirby!
I am absolutely impressed when one of the busiest guys there is, takes the time to prepare this incredible piece of factual information. You did not have too Kirby as I believe you. Unfortunately I will never be able to afford one of yours or any others work of art. But As a CNC and manual machinist I can appreciate what you have done.
If I were able to drive my .9 BC 245 grain bullet at your speeds I too could appreciate more BC. But Alas I will be sticking with the 338 X 378 Imp as it fits nicely in actions I can afford.
Thanks again, Need to print out your information for future reference.
Neal
I am absolutely impressed when one of the busiest guys there is, takes the time to prepare this incredible piece of factual information. You did not have too Kirby as I believe you. Unfortunately I will never be able to afford one of yours or any others work of art. But As a CNC and manual machinist I can appreciate what you have done.
If I were able to drive my .9 BC 245 grain bullet at your speeds I too could appreciate more BC. But Alas I will be sticking with the 338 X 378 Imp as it fits nicely in actions I can afford.
Thanks again, Need to print out your information for future reference.
Neal
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Neal,
Do not get me wrong about the 338-378 Improved. I cut my teeth on real long range shooting with a 338 Kahn which is simply a 338-378 with a conventional 35 degree shoulder. Shoulder location is moved slightly forward but it would be nearly identical to what your using.
My very first Heavy Barrel V-Block rifle I made was chambered in the 338 Kahn and I threw some serious lead out of that rifle. It was not a big deal to get 3000 fps from the 33" barrel. It could do a bit more then this but primer pockets would start letting loose and you know how proud of their brass Wby is.
Accuracy was amazing. In fact I did things with that rifle that I would never have thought possible and still have it in the safe. Will hopefully never have to sell that one.
Its a great chambering, brass is just a bit soft and expensive. Thats the main reason why there is now a 338 Allen Xpress. Wanted that level of performance but with better brass and if you can believe it, more affordable brass as well!!!
You are certainly not undergunned with that sharp shouldered Wby!!!
Good Shooting
Do not get me wrong about the 338-378 Improved. I cut my teeth on real long range shooting with a 338 Kahn which is simply a 338-378 with a conventional 35 degree shoulder. Shoulder location is moved slightly forward but it would be nearly identical to what your using.
My very first Heavy Barrel V-Block rifle I made was chambered in the 338 Kahn and I threw some serious lead out of that rifle. It was not a big deal to get 3000 fps from the 33" barrel. It could do a bit more then this but primer pockets would start letting loose and you know how proud of their brass Wby is.
Accuracy was amazing. In fact I did things with that rifle that I would never have thought possible and still have it in the safe. Will hopefully never have to sell that one.
Its a great chambering, brass is just a bit soft and expensive. Thats the main reason why there is now a 338 Allen Xpress. Wanted that level of performance but with better brass and if you can believe it, more affordable brass as well!!!
You are certainly not undergunned with that sharp shouldered Wby!!!
Good Shooting
