Expander die question

[wonderman4]

I don't know how many rounds have been fired in each of your rifles, but flyers are usually the result of throat erosion.

Remember I said USUALLY, not always.

 

[LoneTraveler]

I like to shoot as many loads as possible through Chronograph. Variance in primers can drive a man crazy. Seen 1 lot of CCI magnum primers, Varied velocity 200 ft. A second. About drives a man to the Funny Farm.

 

[Fishdeeper]

I don't know how many rounds have been fired in each of your rifles, but flyers are usually the result of throat erosion.

Remember I said USUALLY, not always.

Both rifles are fairly new, maybe 300 rounds in the Xbolt 300wsm, and 200 in the Tikka 300winmag. Ive borescoped both and the throats are both good. I'm hoping the inconsistency is due to inconsistent runout, or inconsistent neck tension, but anything is possible.

 

[Fishdeeper]

I like to shoot as many loads as possible through Chronograph. Variance in primers can drive a man crazy. Seen 1 lot of CCI magnum primers, Varied velocity 200 ft. A second. About drives a man to the Funny Farm.

I am loading Fed215GM primers. I use a MagnetoSpeed V3 but I dont use it to shoot groups, it moves the POI.

 

[imyourhuckleberry]

If you are familiar with 21st Century and are concerned for that flyer, you may want to consider plunking a chunk of change for their hydro bullet press that would immediately show data requiring more pressure to seat the bullet. This could help with your miscellaneous flyers.

 

[BrentM]

Review:

Several have mentioned Primers. This can be a real issue and worth checking.

Annealing often and correctly will allow for consistent shoulder set back. May not be an issue, should double check head space.

Annealing will help with neck tension. May not be an issue with 2-3 firing before annealing but I would test this. Take a fresh annealed piece vs one fired 2x and see if the 2x seats differently.

Concentricity. 005 and less is not usually an issue with fliers. I've messed with it and saw no major difference. Out side of .005 I have seen issue with grouping.

Carbon build up inside the neck can be an issue if not cleaned, but it also acts like a dry lube to a degree. You can lots of things to test this. Personnaly I would clean one to like new brass condition and see. Many people do slightly lube the inside of a case mouth.

Case rim lips. If you trim often and don't chamfer the rim edges, you may have a issue with case neck expansion in the chamber. Worth checking.

Brass donut. Worth checking to see if you have this. Those using a mandrel expander likely started doing so due to at one point experiencing a donut. Worth a look.

 

[nksmfamjp]

Your Concentricity is in the ball park...how are you measuring? The 21st century tool does this well.

I look at bullet, case fit to chamber and concentricity for accuracy at first.

When you say concentricity, what are you checking? This is what you want to check...bullet tip runout....the check point is the tip as shown

and inside neck runout

Last, what is your neck thickness variation.....but if concentricity is ok, ignore for now.


Case fit to chamber...your fl sized case at the base and shoulder should be 0.002" smaller than fired roughly. Your fl sized case should have 0.002" shoulder bump. These aren't absolutes, but try measuring these. If there is an issue, try other dies.

Bullet....most important. Try a lot of bullets. I generally find what I want with Hornady and Berger, but you may have to look farther. What bullets have you tried?

Last...shooter. Big magnums are hard to shoot free recoil or just barely touching your shoulder. That said, try to loosen up a bit to reduce your influence on the rifle.

 

[Fishdeeper]

If you are familiar with 21st Century and are concerned for that flyer, you may want to consider plunking a chunk of change for their hydro bullet press that would immediately show data requiring more pressure to seat the bullet. This could help with your miscellaneous flyers.

Yes I was getting excited surfing thru their product pages....its like a candy store. would love to have one day. But for now the expander mandrel will have to do.

 

[Fishdeeper]

Review:

Several have mentioned Primers. This can be a real issue and worth checking.

Annealing often and correctly will allow for consistent shoulder set back. May not be an issue, should double check head space.

Annealing will help with neck tension. May not be an issue with 2-3 firing before annealing but I would test this. Take a fresh annealed piece vs one fired 2x and see if the 2x seats differently.

Concentricity. 005 and less is not usually an issue with fliers. I've messed with it and saw no major difference. Out side of .005 I have seen issue with grouping.

Carbon build up inside the neck can be an issue if not cleaned, but it also acts like a dry lube to a degree. You can lots of things to test this. Personnaly I would clean one to like new brass condition and see. Many people do slightly lube the inside of a case mouth.

Case rim lips. If you trim often and don't chamfer the rim edges, you may have a issue with case neck expansion in the chamber. Worth checking.

Brass donut. Worth checking to see if you have this. Those using a mandrel expander likely started doing so due to at one point experiencing a donut. Worth a look.

Great suggestions..i do trim and chamfer, lube the case necks, and even though Im not using a bushing die i do see a few donuts on the inside at the bottom of the neck...in fact if i try to insert a bullet by hand into a fired case that donut edge will stop it from seating in all the way. Ive never tracked those cases to see if they end up being a flyer. I would hope both the Lee Collet die and the Expander mandrel would take care of this. I am going to start watching this closer.

 

[Fishdeeper]

Your Concentricity is in the ball park...how are you measuring? The 21st century tool does this well.

I look at bullet, case fit to chamber and concentricity for accuracy at first.

When you say concentricity, what are you checking? This is what you want to check...bullet tip runout....the check point is the tip as shown


and inside neck runout

Last, what is your neck thickness variation.....but if concentricity is ok, ignore for now.


Case fit to chamber...your fl sized case at the base and shoulder should be 0.002" smaller than fired roughly. Your fl sized case should have 0.002" shoulder bump. These aren't absolutes, but try measuring these. If there is an issue, try other dies.

Bullet....most important. Try a lot of bullets. I generally find what I want with Hornady and Berger, but you may have to look farther. What bullets have you tried?

Last...shooter. Big magnums are hard to shoot free recoil or just barely touching your shoulder. That said, try to loosen up a bit to reduce your influence on the rifle.

more great feedback...this forum is awesome!

i just started to measure concentricity and neck thickness with a Hornady
gauge.
its Nosler brass in my 300wsm. . Neck thickness varies ..some are .001+- and some are as much as .0035. I am hoping the expander mandrel moves the variation to the outside of the neck.
as for trying bullets, both rifles were different. The Tikka T3 300wm was happy with pretty much anything I fed it...currently loading Barnes TSX 200Gr flatbase Because i have lots of them. And I just found some 220 Eldx to try.

the Xbolt Hells Canyon Speed was really fussy. I tried Nosler LRabs, Berger, Barnes, various factory rounds, different weights, finally settled on 200Eld-x, which is what took my elk at 745yds last fall.
The Shooter variable is always my first suspicion..seems to be the variable I have least control over. I've worked on technique a lot. Adjusted triggers. Replaced buttpads with Limbsavers. I find prone to be my best shooting. Both rifles are braked so pleasant to shoot....not so much for my range neighbours. The xbolt does like to jump more So its harder to get my eye back on target.

Collectively, I really appreciate all the feedback and suggestions From everyone! Some I am already doing which is reassuring. Clearly there are additional things I can do or use to get better. Some will be new additions to my "process" so I am optimistic that I have room to improve, and stuff to buy!

 

[BrentM]

Great suggestions..i do trim and chamfer, lube the case necks, and even though Im not using a bushing die i do see a few donuts on the inside at the bottom of the neck...in fact if i try to insert a bullet by hand into a fired case that donut edge will stop it from seating in all the way. Ive never tracked those cases to see if they end up being a flyer. I would hope both the Lee Collet die and the Expander mandrel would take care of this. I am going to start watching this closer.

Expander mandrel should do it. I had this issue show up in my 6.5-284 where I was seating the bullets long. Eventually I noticed the donut was an issue when I tested a new longer bullet and it needed deeper seating. I annealed, undersized, and expanded. It helped. I wound up using a neck turning mandrel and turning the necks, the base where donut was needed to be cut for sure. Weird. Since then I use an expander and have not had the issue again.