Elk rifle

[Tom264]

Why not a 7/08 or .308 with turrets and Barnes TSX's?

Less recoil, less muzzle blast and still gets the job done without hurting your shoulder.

 

[arthurj]

Thats kind of where my thoughts are going now, even to something smaller. I just know I have a tendency to "yank" it when I think I'm going to get hit with some recoil.
Tom, and Longtimelongranger, I can see that anytime you go up in caliber and energy it would kill better but would you notice it in this range of calibers? A lot of people say they do and a lot say they don't. To me, in the range of calibers we shoot I can't see that you would really notice it. What I mean is, if you had a 22-243, a .50 and like a 20 mm cannon, sure I think you would notice a higher incidence of bang flops as you move up in those 3 calibers if you were to shoot a 100 animals right in the same spot. It just seems to me that in the range of 7mm, 30 cal, 338 that same test would not show as strong of a correlation with increasing caliber. I may be wrong but that would be a great test if we had the time and permits to go shoot a few hundred elk with a video camera!

Here I am saying all of this and the only live elk I've ever seen was driving through Colorado... So I do still respect your opinions

I'm thinking of this on the scale of whitetail that I've shot. From a 22-243(that was mildly loaded just because I had no time to do load development before hunting) to 25-06, 308, 7mm ultra, 280, I still don't see a strong tendency to bang flop. And in fact I think the fastest I've ever seen a deer drop was with the 22-243. I threw together a load that was only hitting about 1000lbs at 100 yards and shot one around 150 that just buckled. Just a heart shot too
Others with exits the size of baseballs out of the vitals ran 100 yards sometimes

 

[Tom264]

I can see that anytime you go up in caliber and energy it would kill better but would you notice it in this range of calibers?

I dont think so.
The 2 most important aspects of of killing critters, and waaaay more important than the cartridge shooting it is the bullet and where you put it all else is fluff.

 

[arthurj]

I agree with that Tom

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Unfortunately people think that they should be able to achieve bang flops. It simply is not reality. Sometimes it happens, (and it is cool) but it is not the norm.

I know that the original post is asking only about caliber, but key to this discussion is bullet choice. No matter what caliber you choose, it must be coupled with a quality dedicated hunting bullet. If you run without a good bullet you might as well be ****ing into the wind.

I stand in the crowd of a high weight retention bullet that will carry through the target. It must be a bullet that will have consistent frontal deformation. More important than double caliber mushroom is the shape of the deformation. A square frontal area, or flat leading edge will cause the most (largest) permanent wound channel.

Once you have chosen your bullet, then you must limit your effective range to the minimum velocity that the bullet is functional.

Now, with that said, I do not believe that there is such a thing as being over gunned. Bigger is better if you can handle it. My son has shot an elk in each of his first three years of hunting. He is 14 this year, and still carrying the same rifle that he started with at 12. And it is not a .50 BMG. He shoots a 6.5-06 with a high quality, dedicated hunting bullet. All of his elk were taken beyond 300yrds out to 375yrds. All of these elk went less than 20yrds. His first elk at 375yrds was hit in the large shoulder bone on the on side, took out the front of the lungs, went through the big shoulder bone on the off side, and recovered in the meat of the off side shoulder. 82% weight retention, perfect mushroom.

I will just say that you need to put as much or more effort into choosing your bullet as you do into choosing your caliber.

Hope I helped more than adding confusion.

Steve

 

[arthurj]

Steve,
Thank you. I have actually been moving toward better bullet choices for whitetail these days. I do agree that bullet choice has as much to do with it as anything.

 

[cross]

Unfortunately people think that they should be able to achieve bang flops. It simply is not reality. Sometimes it happens, (and it is cool) but it is not the norm.

I know that the original post is asking only about caliber, but key to this discussion is bullet choice. No matter what caliber you choose, it must be coupled with a quality dedicated hunting bullet. If you run without a good bullet you might as well be ****ing into the wind.

I stand in the crowd of a high weight retention bullet that will carry through the target. It must be a bullet that will have consistent frontal deformation. More important than double caliber mushroom is the shape of the deformation. A square frontal area, or flat leading edge will cause the most (largest) permanent wound channel.

Once you have chosen your bullet, then you must limit your effective range to the minimum velocity that the bullet is functional.

Now, with that said, I do not believe that there is such a thing as being over gunned. Bigger is better if you can handle it. My son has shot an elk in each of his first three years of hunting. He is 14 this year, and still carrying the same rifle that he started with at 12. And it is not a .50 BMG. He shoots a 6.5-06 with a high quality, dedicated hunting bullet. All of his elk were taken beyond 300yrds out to 375yrds. All of these elk went less than 20yrds. His first elk at 375yrds was hit in the large shoulder bone on the on side, took out the front of the lungs, went through the big shoulder bone on the off side, and recovered in the meat of the off side shoulder. 82% weight retention, perfect mushroom.

I will just say that you need to put as much or more effort into choosing your bullet as you do into choosing your caliber.

Hope I helped more than adding confusion.

Steve

Good post Steve. You're exactly right, bang-flops are not the norm. For me, the norm for elk is for the critter to soak up a shot or two, run 15 to 40 yards, wobble and fall over. My 338's and 7mm's both seem to generate this effect unless I spine or shoulder shoot (sometimes even when I shoulder shoot). That's why I pack my 7WSM more than my 338WM when elk hunting. However, I totally agree with you that for elk, bigger is better to a point and if I'm going to be hunting mostly thick cover with small chance for long range, I carry my 338WM.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Arthurj, I speak from about 40 years experience doing your test you proposed. Yes, There is definitely a difference. I do not speak from opinions. When I say something on here it is because I have been there and done that. I guess the best way to answer your original question is this. I can not count the number of times I have been in hunting camp where grizzlies are seen often. After a guy has seen one or huge tracks and I have filled my tag the hunters with 7mm's and 30's always ask if they can carry my 338 for increased protection. Many outfitters frown on anything smaller than a 338 for grizzlies/brownies. And you will not hunt dangerous animals in Africa with a small caliber. There is a reason for that, large calibers crush things to the ground better.

I have hunted all over north america for many years with every caliber seeing hundreds of animals hit. I have shot elk with 7mm's and 30's at over 1000 yards. If I am serious after large big game like elk or big bears the 338 caliber or larger is what I use now. People can learn from that or continue to base their choice on opinions.

If you hit an animal in the right place with the right bullet he is going down. I could go out and kill elk with a 22-250, but it would not be a good choice. Unfortunately shots in the field are not perfect many times and many do not have the right bullets. The big 338 can still harvest your game where a smaller caliber probably will not. This topic is not an opinion, it is fact for the few people with enough experience with all calibers to know the difference.

I am not on here to start an argument because what a guy shoots is his choice. I am just stating this is what I have learned through many years of building top long range rifles and watching them and others perform on game. I have learned that there is a difference.

 

[arthurj]

Well I can definitely respect that experience, and will definitely weigh it into my decision. Like I said the only elk I have seen was from a car window!

I guess it all boils down to, "I wish I wasn't such wussy" ha ha I wish I was like some of these guys that LIKE the recoil from a 338 win

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Well I can definitely respect that experience, and will definitely weigh it into my decision. Like I said the only elk I have seen was from a car window!

I guess it all boils down to, "I wish I wasn't such wussy" ha ha I wish I was like some of these guys that LIKE the recoil from a 338 win

I shoot a very high recoiling rifle, and I do not like it. I tolerate it. In fact I have to mentally prepare my self for the recoil, even in a hunting situation. If it is a short range shot then I can grip it and rip it and it does not matter. But a long range shot where I have to impart as little influence on the rifle as possible, I must mentally prepare my self for the impact that I am about to receive.

Which brings me to my next question... Why don't you run a brake? I personally have had enough of the beatings and am going to have a break installed soon.

Steve

PS.

I had not braked for the noise. I will now prepair for the noise instead.

 

[arthurj]

Steve,
I think I'd be better off with the recoil than the noise of the brake. I had a 300 RUM for a short period of time that recoiled like a 243, but the muzzle blast was like setting a stick of dynamite in front of my face!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I am going to use an APS Painkiller. They do not effect the shooter and you will be able to spot your own shots. If you put your spotter directly behind the shooter he will be unaffected as well. I do recommend hearing protection.

Steve

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I do not want to be misunderstood about the caliber issue.

I agree with LTLR. Bigger is better, and gives more margin for error. The idea is to have as little error as possible. Shoot within the ability of the rifle/bullet combo.

Steve

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Arthurj, The most important thing is proper shot placement with the proper bullet. If you don't feel you can do this with a 338 then get what you can shoot comfortably and shoot within those limitations. I am not saying you need a 338 to kill elk. The question was is there any difference. Yes there is and a 338 ups the odds. I have killed elk with every caliber from 6mm on up and if the proper bullet is in the right spot you will have a dead elk. The difference is as you go down in caliber you must limit your shot choices to what your rifle will do. With the 338 I can kill an elk at any angle any time by crushing through any part of the body. As the caliber goes down you must start limiting your shot choices to what the caliber and bullet is capable of doing. When I have that once in a lifetime trophy in front of me I do not want to be limited. I guess that is the primary difference.