basinman
Well-Known Member
Do you have many wolves there? If so, this may explain it.
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Elk arrived!!
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bigngreen
Well-Known Member
We have wolves, they should be showing up soon on this herd BUT down here they get shot up pretty good, we have some aggressive gunning from airplanes and everyone shoots on sight, I didn't see a single one last year and I didn't see tracks during hunting season for the first time in many years. The elk have figured out the wolves and I believe between us shooting the heck out of the wolves and the elk getting savvy we could keep a decent population BUT they can not escape the pumpkin, you figure over 20,000 non resident tags alone and a good share end up down here, they have a significant impact!!
I spent some good time in my typical unit and I only ran into locals a couple times, the VAST majority was non res and like someone else said, they are shooting ANYTHING just to shoot something. One camp from the Dakotas were striking out and they only had a small bull in camp, the next weekend they had all shot mule deer does or forky bucks as a consolation prize.
Rick Richard
Well-Known Member
Very good thread as long as we don't pit the residents against the non resident hunters.
I truly believe most hunters are responsible and posess respect for each other, the land and the game being pursued. It is the very few that break the laws that get the attention and shine out to the general public and leaves that bad stigma.
I hunt out west every year and appreciate those states that allow me to do so. And, if those states needed to adjust those opportunities due to declining game then I along with other responsible hunters would understand and accept those decisions.
Bottom line like mentioned is we need to be voicing our concerns to the law makers to ensure the preservation of the game and the future of hunting.
Sorry, my rant.
I truly believe most hunters are responsible and posess respect for each other, the land and the game being pursued. It is the very few that break the laws that get the attention and shine out to the general public and leaves that bad stigma.
I hunt out west every year and appreciate those states that allow me to do so. And, if those states needed to adjust those opportunities due to declining game then I along with other responsible hunters would understand and accept those decisions.
Bottom line like mentioned is we need to be voicing our concerns to the law makers to ensure the preservation of the game and the future of hunting.
Sorry, my rant.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I've watched residents become desperate too, I've had to talk myself down, elk and deer meat is still very, very important for many in my area and it's getting to the point where more of us are standing there making a decision between having meat or letting one go so maybe there can be something for our kids. There is no reason for us to be in this position with this large of country and numbers MT should be the hunting mecca of the west for people who just want to hunt and take an animal to people who want to find that one bull and take some horns.
wapitiaddict
Well-Known Member
I agree, I think this thread has been very civil and constructive with different opinions and thoughts.
Where I hunt, it's a little bit different than biggreen. Where I hunt the private land owners are some of the bigger offenders. They think all the animals belong to them and break non-motorized hunting laws even though it still applies to private land. Some have also leased out their hunting rights and those people bring in big groups and just spray lead and drive groups of elk all over the mountain, which includes adjacent public lands.
Anyhow, not trying to pit land owner vs public hunter either, but as another person stated...it will require all groups and parties to make a concerted effort.
wapitiaddict
Well-Known Member
Do you know how much of the wintering herds are local vs further away? Although there might not be a lot of wolves near you, I wonder if the wolves are culling the elk in their summer ranges so by the time the winter herds get to you the numbers are way down.
wapitiaddict
Well-Known Member
I recently watched a National Geographic episode on West Yellowstone. A good portion of it showed various footage of wolves preying on elk and bison. In fact one of the opening scenes was a pack chasing down a full grown bull elk in the snow. Luckily that one got away by going into the water. I was surprised how much they documented the wolves eating on the animals. I chuckled that they were giving lots of ammunition to anti-wolf people without even realizing. (I don't like the wolves much myself.)
Pmacc60
Well-Known Member
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I see all this as very scary for the future of hunting the Rocky Mountain states. So many different factors that are all working against each other. Poor game management practices by the different states fish and game departments! To much focus on pleasing people and not enough focus on the managing of the resource . Predators relentlessly hammering the elk And deer herds ( who ever thought that was a good idea) to many non resident tags issued ( money for the local economy ) motorized vehicles stressing the resource . Not enough law enforcement out there making sure laws aren't being broken ! God forbid a harsh killing winter in the near future, it's all quite dismal.
As non residents we are going to have to be patient about our chances at tags, we need to act appropriately as guest and respect the laws and culture of the state we are hunting in. Game management agencies need to be committed to real management strategy geared to protect the herds from over hunting and predators. Hard decision have to be made not to please hunters but to conserved the elk and mule deer population so it can rebound. Follow the money trail and you will find the culprit . To much pressure put on the Fish and wildlife departments to get those tags in the hands of hunters and outfitters! Residents may have to lose a season or two as well, it's not right but maybe inevitable .
Mostly we all have to police our own ranks, yes make that call to report poor conduct or poaching. Police ourselves on making good decisions out in the field and remembering we hunt , we aren't out there just killing. Thanks to bigngreen for getting this thread going , the only way to fix this is to start addressing it.
As non residents we are going to have to be patient about our chances at tags, we need to act appropriately as guest and respect the laws and culture of the state we are hunting in. Game management agencies need to be committed to real management strategy geared to protect the herds from over hunting and predators. Hard decision have to be made not to please hunters but to conserved the elk and mule deer population so it can rebound. Follow the money trail and you will find the culprit . To much pressure put on the Fish and wildlife departments to get those tags in the hands of hunters and outfitters! Residents may have to lose a season or two as well, it's not right but maybe inevitable .
Mostly we all have to police our own ranks, yes make that call to report poor conduct or poaching. Police ourselves on making good decisions out in the field and remembering we hunt , we aren't out there just killing. Thanks to bigngreen for getting this thread going , the only way to fix this is to start addressing it.
Tons of federal money was used in Mt for wolf support.But they arent managed how they should be.As I mentioned our just retired F&G researcher,wolf specialist.She studied them since 1979.Trapped over a 100 wolfs,and other things like grizz.Article in my local paper today.The original goal was 300,she said there area 2000,mt,ID,WYO,WA.She doesnt even support the federal gov to transplant wolves in colorado or other.Her pet project did real well.
I think New Mexico has the right idea. Every hunt is a random draw, no points system. 84% of the tags go to residents, 10% go to residents and non-residents who apply with an outfitter and 6% go to non-residents who apply without an outfitter. You either have a bow hunt, a muzzleloader hunt or a rifle hunt for all the species that you draw. You don't get to go from bow to rifle with the same tag. That's just insane. Archery hunts are 2 weeks long and there are 2 hunts per unit. Rifle hunts here are 5 days and there are only 2 hunts per unit and there are muzzleloader hunts as well.
I am a non-resident for Montana so you can't really call me a non-resident hater. They should shorten the hunts, give out less tags for a while for the game to recover, only have one hunt type draws (if you draw archery, you can only hunt archery not both archery and rifle). Go to a random draw for residents and non-residents and give the majority of the tags to residents. I'm sorry easterners or other non-residents, if you really want to hunt elk that bad, move to a state that has them.
Just my 2 cents.
I am a non-resident for Montana so you can't really call me a non-resident hater. They should shorten the hunts, give out less tags for a while for the game to recover, only have one hunt type draws (if you draw archery, you can only hunt archery not both archery and rifle). Go to a random draw for residents and non-residents and give the majority of the tags to residents. I'm sorry easterners or other non-residents, if you really want to hunt elk that bad, move to a state that has them.
Just my 2 cents.
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bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I would like to chose archery or rifle for each tag, I enjoy hunting both ways and would hate to have to be locked in for all my hunting that year with one method of take, I do think something has to change there though.
2 hunters per unit, you sure about that. When I hunted the Valle Vidal there were 35 tags for that 5 day hunt. I also thought they dropped the NR tags to 7% few years ago.
2 HUNTS means there are two available hunts to put in for...each hunt has so many tags. Not 2 HUNTERS.
Yea..I got the 6 and the 4 mixed up in the percentages. It's 84% for residents, 10 for non residents and 6% for outfitters. Got the words mixed up. They never dropped it to 7. Don't believe it ever passed.
I know how the draw works, I have been living here for 15 years.
Yea..I got the 6 and the 4 mixed up in the percentages. It's 84% for residents, 10 for non residents and 6% for outfitters. Got the words mixed up. They never dropped it to 7. Don't believe it ever passed.
I know how the draw works, I have been living here for 15 years.
