Electric Powder Measure - thoughs

[7mm Magnum]

Electric Powder Measure vs. Beam Scales

"To my knowledge, acculab/sartorius scales are european, and not cheap chinese crap. "

And therein lies the rub; none of the various electronic reloading scales are of professonal caliber, they're ALL "cheap Chinese crap", no matter how much they sell for.

Bottom line, the digitals we purchase are no more accurate than beams, tend ot be less sensitive and less consistant, much more likely to be influenced by unstable and/or dirty line voltage and shift with the ambient temperature. Beams don't care about any of that and they will last forever unless abused by the user..

I guess I'll have to be the one to disagree with you,.. I started out with a beam scale (Ohaus) and still own the thing. I too was a little skeptical about accuracy between my new "Chargemaster' and the old school way, so I had compared the delivery weight from the chargemaster and what it's electronic scale said was there in weight to another electronic digital I owned (Dillon) and once again to the Ohaus beam. The difference between them was not even worth mentioning, and the beam scale showed no difference at all. I have run simaliar tests on them with various amounts of weight and come to the same conclusion every time.

The chargemaster electronic delivery system and scale assembly as a unit is VERY accurate and consistant with it's delivery of powders to .001 of a grain according to my comparisons.

As with any scale you should check your scales calibration off and on for maintaining your accuracy. Which is something I have found that many people do not do regularly so if your scale is off, it's probably your own fault for not doing what is required of any scale electronic or manual,.. verify your weight accuracy settings and re-calibrate as necessary.

JMO,...

 

[Topgun 30-06]

You guys are actually all correct, to a point. The point being that the beam scale will last forever if taken care of properly while the digitals have circuit boards, strain gauges or load cells, etc., that may last forever and then again they may go out at any time. I guarantee it will take a length of time to replace one and for an expense that will be higher than the cost of a decent beam scale. Meanwhile, unless you have a second scale, you're screwed. This is speaking from my 30 years experience testing thousands of various devices as a W&M Official. The low cost digitals being sold for powder reweighing, when they are working properly, are on the same basic level of accuracy as a good beam scale. Where the digital excels is in speed and that's about it. That's why for the amount of reloading I do I don't feel the need for one.

 

[boomtube]

" I guess I'll have to be the one to disagree with you,.. The chargemaster electronic delivery system and scale assembly as a unit is VERY accurate and consistant with it's delivery of powders to .001 of a grain"

Disagree as you will but I never said ditigital scales aren't usable, only that they offer no distinct reloading advantage over beams and they most certainly have significant limits on accurate life spans an ease of use. You have it, you will enjoy it...until it craps out. Thing is, my 46 year old 1010 is still going strong, likely will be in another 46 years. You really think your electronic will match that? Or even close?

Whatever, I strongly disbelieve your Chinese/RCBS digtital is either accurate or consistant to anywhere near one thousanth of a grain. A pencil dot on a piece of paper weighs more than that.

 

[nheninge]

Beam scales are NOT more ACCURATE than a research grade electric scale, cheap or not. This is a basic scientific definition. Argue over precision and reliability all you want . I have never seen a beam scale claiming to have accuracy of i.e. 66.4201 grains. Electronic scales, for a price, have this type of accuracy... if you desire. It is a basic scientific definition . Look up the definitions of accuracy, precision, and error. RCBS and beam scale have EQUAL ERROR. As for reliability, it is like trying to compare a hammer and an air nailer. Sure an air nailer will break down, but millions of houses are now built with them EXCLUSIVELY. But... you can still build a quality house with a hammer.

For those that believe a beam scale is more "accurate":
I want to see...

A statistical comparison of actual (known exact gold standard) vs predicted weights (blinded please) between a beam and electronic research grade scale. Please include p-values and sufficient statistical power.

A linear logarithmic regression analysis predicting velocity from powder weight between a beam and a research grade scale.

Put up or shut up.

 

[nheninge]

Fyi

Denver Instrument MXX-123 Test within AccurateShooter.com

 

[Topgun 30-06]

You better read and learn some word comprehension before you start spouting off. Boomtube and I are talking about the cheap stuff being sold for powder reweighing, not the expensive laboratory type stuff you're talking about!!! No digital scale selling for 3 digit figures, including ones tied into the powder dispenser systems being discussed, are graduated in less than 0.01 lbs. to the best of my knowledge and you can figure out what that amounts to in grains, as I'm not going to take the time. I'll put my 30+ years in W&M up against anything you want to put out on this BB!!!Now I've put up and you can shut up and read posts a little closer before you make an *** out of yourself!

 

[rscott5028]

Topgun,

I don't know what you guys are talking about or who's selling scales and beams for what specific purposes.

But, there are many of us who use the Acculab and Denver Insruments scales for exactly that purpose and are doing so in conjuction with our fast and accurate digital powder dispensers.

But, I salute those who still just drop charges or weigh with a beam. ...many have tremendous success doing so and the same goes for digital.

-- richard

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Acculab Scales

Acculab has ceased business operations effective January 2011. Acculab was part of the Sartorius Group and victim of the delivery strategy for Sartorius' reorganization in 2010. Acculab offered low cost inexpensive weighing scales like the PP pocket scales and Econ digital scales for the elementary science classroom and have been totally eliminated from the Sartorius scale portfolio. Acculab Vicon electronic scales have ceased production and been replaced with the Sartorius AY Series. Acculab SVI bench scales have no direct replacement. ECL Excelleron light industrial weighing scales can be substituted with the higher quality Sartorius Midrics. Also, Acculab ALC and Atilon lab balance equivalent cross reference is the Sartorius AZ and ED series respectively.

Richard & Gentlemen: Rather than tell you this and possibly have negative comments, I just copied and pasted the above announcement off the net. Please read it carefully and notice the verbiage used to describe their scales. The scales we have been talking about are the inexpensive products that were sold by Acculab and all the other companies that are producing these small digital scales that sell for about the cost of shipping (joke) to around the costs of the ones built and attached to the dispenser system shown and discussed in the diagrams in a previous post. I will give you no argument on the beam versus digital scale when you change course and start discussing the more expensive stuff designed more for laboratory use. I guarantee that the guts of the two are much different and that's where money comes into play. It's what you pay for an item, in this case a digital scale, that differentiates it's accuracy and sensitivity and that's why I, and probably boomtube, have made the previous statements. When you start doing what the gentleman did that said: "Put up or shut up", you are comparing apples to oranges, as the old saying goes. With my extensive experience in the W&M field, I see no reason to go beyond a decent beam scale or the digital instruments that are now being produced and attached to these automatic powder dispensers. To use a laboratory scale that costs a fortune to go out into 3 or more decimal places when weighing powder that has granules exceeding the value of the smallest scale graduation is plain and simple overkill IMHO!!! Probably the best sentence that puts this whole discussion into perspective was made by cowboy and I quote: "No matter what you decide - never sell your beam scale as they are not effected by most of the elements an electronic is and I'll bet you end up verifying your electronic with your beam scale."

 

[boomtube]

Beam scales are NOT more ACCURATE than a research grade electric scale, ...For those that believe a beam scale is more "accurate":"

Until you posted this, no such claim has been made or even suggested. ??

But then, few of us use "lab grade" digitals for reloading, do we?

Lab scales, heck, even grocery store digitals, have routine professional maint. and calibration certification schedules to keep them functioning properly (I used to do some of that). I'm yet to see a reloader grade digital with a certification sticker on it, ain't likely to neither (there's a message in that)! I don't care how many decimals a reloading digital shows to the right, I seriously doubt any of them can accurately measure passed a tenth grain. (Some auto speedometers indicate to 120 MPH but few can do more than a hundred and most won't do that. Ditto cheap digital scales with lots of meaningless display numbers.)

If a reloading digital craps out during the warrantee period you may send it to the "maker"; they will toss it and send you a new one because it's cheaper by far to swap rather than repair. (I'm sure it's happened but, in some 46 years of reloading, I've never even heard of anyone having to get a beam scale repaired.)

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, use what you will, it matters not to me. My intent has been to make those who wonder which type is "best" for reloading aware of the limitations of cheap electronics, no matter the hype of those who think digitals are on the fabulous cutting edge of technology; they are not, they are just scales, no more than that. Buy a digital and if you get a good one you will like it - long as it lasts. But don't kid yourself that because digital lab scales have great accuracy and sensitivity your little plastic cheap-o will share that.

Reloading digitals not only do not have "better" accuracy or resolution than a beam, I've never seen one even claim to do better than a tenth grain. But then, that's as good as reloading needs. It does need to be repeatable tho. And for a long time. Let's test that; starting now, I'll pit my already quite old beam against your modern digital, let's see which one dies first.

Enough.

 

[7mm Magnum]

Morning gentlemen,..

Well My main intent was not to throw this discussion into an argument. All I was trying to relay is the fact that for the I money spent on my Chargemaster I received a product which delivered exactly what I was looking for in a powder weighing system:

SPEED combined with ACCURACY !

As you will note in my previous post I DID use the beam scale for a means of accuracy testing of the electronic and then again did another comparison to an altogether different electric scale (the Dillon) and found the differences not worthwhile to worry about. I must also apologize for my claim of the difference in measuring .001,... that was a typo on my part and should have read .01

Thick fingers and the small keys on the laptop combined with my not noticing my error on the post probably created the basis for this drawn out bantering and it was noticed this morning reading through all of the replies I found in my inbox this morning.

In using my Chargemaster it has given me the confidence to trust it's measurements to be accurate,.. and if it makes any mistakes in the programmed weight throw the scale will set off an error alarm letting me know there's a problem. (happens once in maybe every 20-22 dispensings) I feel that any scale that can determine a weight amount accurately within the tolerable amounts in a ammunition reloading scenario (+/- .02 grains) and do it dependably time after time without me in the figure is a GOOD thing, and I openly welcome it. It hands down beats having to hand trickle or weigh out each and every charge for every round I'm assembling. It also went the step beyond my Dillon Determinator scale by having the auto dispensing mode putting the powder into the pan and stopping automatically at the desired weight. For me,.. it was a welcome and accurate way of dispensing the powder weight in an unassisted mode. When it came to certain powder styles (extruded) being dispensed from my powder station on my 550B press I was not comfortable in trusting the machine to dispense them accurately so I did each individually myself with the scale by hand which was very time consuming. With the chargemaster system it has removed that time consumption factor completely. By the time I deprime the brass case and reformed the brass it has already dispensed and weighed out the powder charge to install and assemble the round to completion.

So to close out my feelings regarding the debate,.. I feel for me and no one else that the Chargemaster electronic scale and dispensing system is everything I was loking for,... and I do STILL have my beam scale for any backups that I may feel I need.

 

[johnnyk]

Yeah, what he said. I too have been in the scale business a while and he's right, you don't need a scale of any type that reads out to the thousandths (.001) of a grain to get match grade accuracy. The average shooter, and rifle for that matter, aren't capable of recognizing that kind of shooting accuracy. I have tried that madness and it isn't worth the effort. I used a Denver DI-200 and it took me three times longer to weigh the charges because I tried to make the third digit to the right of the decimal read "0" everytime. Talk about anal! With that kind of precision and readability, yes one kernel of powder will be detected.
The standard RCBS and OHAUS beam scale(s) is quiet capable of rendering the level of precision and accuracy that most people need to obtain sub MOA groups for LR hunting and target shooting. The tighter the groups the better I always say. This will instill confidence in the shooter which also "tips the scales" in his/her favor when executing a shot (pun intended)
Enter the electronic scale/dispensers: Absolutely love my RCBS ChargeMaster. It gives me the accuracy and precision that I require to obtain sub 1/2" groups (.5MOA) at 100yds all the way out to 500yds with factory rifles (I would shoot farther if I had the range). The CM also speeds up the weighing process and I enjoy that, whether it's 12 rnds or 150 rnds. My range is right out my front door so I can load 3 at a time, step outside, touch 'em off, and repeat this process until I either find the accuracy I require or decide that particular bullet, powder, primer or combo is not worth me pursuing.
As for longevity: Nothing last forever, here on earth. Any electronic piece of equipment has the potential to last a long time, longer than its owner in some cases, but also has a higher failure rate due to its complex nature and vunerability. Balance beams are simple, proven mechanical devices that usually last a long time with low failure rates.
I sell more electronic scales than the balance beam type and this in all areas of the scale industry. For most business' time is money. The electronics have this edge. They also interface with other types of electronics (printers, computers, remote displays and PLC's) where as balance beams do not.
I think it comes down to personal preference and what the individual feels comfortable with. Oh well, like the .30-06-.270 or Ford-Chevy debates, nothing really settled. Gotta go reload a few loads, my Saturdays a wasting in front of this computer! JohnnyK.

 

[rscott5028]

Topgun,

As you alluded to, many of us go to extremes and use overkill whether it be scales, brass prep, or whatever. And, the groups don't always validate the extra effort or expense. But, to each his own as far as I'm concerned.

As for the different scales, they are all tools which are guaranteed to give inaccurate and non-precise performance when used improperly.

Beams - Give reasonable accuracy for most people and applications. They will last a lifetime if well maintained.

Cheap digitals - Are just that and are extremely temperamental.

Electronic Powder dispensers e.g. Chargemaster - Are fast and reliable with reasonable accuracy for most people and applications. They will not last forever.

Mechanical Powder Measures - Are fast and reliable. Premium models give nearly as good results as dispensers for many applications.

High quality digitals - Slow, but very precise. The benefits are debatable.

That's my opinion and folks can twist it however they like. You can define cheap or expensive however you like. It's all relative and sometimes you get what you pay for. But, not always.

JMO
-- richard

 

[Topgun 30-06]

I would not argue with any of the statements made in the last three posts as they all pretty well are what I have stated.
Terry---I was pretty sure your extra 0 was a typo and that did not get anything started as far as I'm concerned. It was the "put up or shut up" BS the other poster made on scales that we were'nt even discussing in comparison with beams!!!

 

[Wildhog]

I ordered the rcbs chargemaster aprox 3 wks ago. As I posted earlier in this post.The fist time I used it it worked great and was very accurate. Well I used it again last Thursday developing a 7rem mag load. I calibrated, entered 64 grains,pressed enter and disp. It dropped charge and I noticed bell sounded before trickler finished the weight. The scale read under 64 grains when the bell sounded. Then the dispenser completed the charge and scale read 64 grains. I double CK with 2 different digital scales and my balence beam and they all read 65.5 grains ( 1.5 over the 64 grains I entered). I recalibrated and tried this several times and got the same results. I called rcbs they said send it back and they would fix it or give me a new one. I called Natchez and they said send it back and they would refund my money since I only had it a couple weeks. I sent it back to Natchez this morning. I think Ill try the pact its made in USA and the dispenser has a lifetime warrenty. I realize you can get a lemon in any product but this was aggragvating and makes me question there QC. The pact they say is slower but Im in no hurry. Hopefully ill have no problems with it. Ive heard good and bad about It also.