Do you want a exit wound????

[Fotis]

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Yet more proof that shoulder shots work. THis is my latest kill. It might interest you to know that she did move after the shot--she tried to get up but couldn't because her shoulder would not support her weight! So she just died instead. Not a bad way to bring home meat for a way that doesn't work huh?! OK, found the TYlenol. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Used an accubond huh? Smart man!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[skeeter]

I hunted with an older fellow that shot a deer while we were hunting to gether and he gut shot it.He said that he has got to old to try to find deer that has ran into the woods 200 or 300 yards so he told me that he shoots all of them in the gun do to all the blood.That deer that day did leave a blood trail that a blind man could follow.
I my self shot one that was about 200 yards away and it was walking real fast and i hit it it the gut.It ran about 100 yards and left a very good blood trail.As we all know ,a bullet is more and likley to go all the way throught if you shoot the in the gut area.It kills, but iam not saing that it right to shot animals in this area.

 

[lerch]

Wow I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

While I think everyone here has good opinions I am just lost on how someone could think a fmj bullet zipping right through a animal could possible have more stopping power than a hollowpoint or high preformance bullet striking bone on impact, it just doesn't make sense to me. I could go on and on but GoodGrouper has already proven most my points for me, I am glad to know that at least some other people are thinkg along the same lines as me. What I would think that virtually no one could argue with is that if you take out on or hopefully both front shoulders on a animal he will not be going far and this allows for a easy second shot, if it is required.

 

[Kenster-Boy]

GOODGROUPER,

I am curious to know more about the whole shoulder shot game? Like most people I was always raised to shoot em in the heart/lung area. But I watched the Beyond Belief video and was wondering how in the hell they always dropped the animals (small and large) dead in their tracks. I just drew a cow elk tag for this year and I may just have to try one of them shoulder angles. I am not sure if a 175gr. SMK going 1300fps is gonna be enough umph to break a shoulder though. What are the specifics on shoulder shots? ie where do you want to hit em?

 

[jb1000br]

.

 

[goodgrouper]

Sorry. I don't buy it. I would not hunt if all I had to shoot was flat nosed, non-mushrooming bullets. Maybe for dangerous game they would be ok, but for the hunting I do, give me a bonded polymer tipped high bc bullet and watch me kill anything I want as far as I want. I am not bragging, I am just saying that I have walked the walk and I'm not about the talk.

Bottom line is I will kill my way and you can kill your way. I have no reason to deviate from the course I have chosen because I have never lost an animal with the bullets and shot placement I choose.

Oh, and by the way JB, I have no doubt that the big cast bullets in a 45-70 kill quite well as I have seen them in action. But don't you think that it is the fact that it launches a flippin' 420 grain bullet that makes it hit like a sledgehammer more than the shape of the frickin' bullet?

 

[goodgrouper]

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Like most people I was always raised to shoot em in the heart/lung area.

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As was I but after shooting a 25" 4x4 mule deer 8 times with a .270 at 50 yards in the lungs and heart and watching him stumble down a steep hill into some other hunters, I decided to try something different. In my opinion, this way of shooting for the heart/lung area is as old fashioned as the 32 win specials the men who formulated this now defunct bs carried. We now have the power above and beyond what our grandfathers ever dreamed we could shoot from a shoulder fired weapon. In all honesty, we have a gruesome over-abundance of power at our disposal. Look at all these Ultra mags and belted mags and high bc bullets. We have bone crushing power to use and we are still shooting for soft tissue? Not me. It's ok though. People scoffed at Wilbur and Orville wright too.
They had some new way of doing something that was very unorthodox to "old" thinkers.

ANyway, back to your questions.

I have written earlier posts on this subject that go into detail about this shot but would take too much time to type in entirety right now. Basically, you need roughly 800 ftlbs to break the shoulder blade of a full size cow elk, and about 900 ftlbs to break the shoulder of a big bull elk. As long as you have this amount, the shoulder will snap like a twig (and usually into several large pieces).

While the higher shoulder shot is best, I have hit two elk centered in the blade and it still worked with no problems. I believe there are a few shots on John Burn's video that went low on the blade and it still worked also. The cow I have pictured above was shot centered in the blade but still worked fine as you can see by the pic.

Even if you totally mess up and shoot so low that it hits the high leg, it will still snap it and an elk will give you a second shot. A mule deer on the other hand must be hit in the shoulder because the way they bound instead of gait, they can make it away with 3 legs.

Hope this helps.

 

[lerch]

420gr is one big dang bullet and no matter how fast it is giong it is gonna hit REALLY hard but i do not think it will do the damage on a typical game animal, a freakin cape buffalo isn't typical, that a large high speed bullet will do that will enter the animal and then open up and distribute its energy as it penetrates. If for some reason it manage to completly penetrate the animal and exit it will be fully expand and possible breaking apart thus making a large exit wound that probable won't be needed because if you hit the animal in the front shoulders he will be on his *** already anyway. Now this is only my opinion but I would venture to say that my 300rum with a 190gr heavy jacketed wildcat bullet going 3250fps would have a more devastating effect on a elk than these flat point bullets of yours, if i am wrong then I apologize but like I said this is only my opinion.

 

[jb1000br]

Re: Do you want a exit wound???? *DELETED*

Post deleted by jb1000br

 

[goodgrouper]

OK Jason,
I should not even dignify your rebuttal with another response but I will.



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It is backed up by fact whether you "BUY IT" or not

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I have yet to see any fact. You put up a pic of some bullets in a box and state what you call fact. Big deal. I'm I wrong for thinking that my personal experiences (backed up by a picture of my method) are slightly more convincing than what you have brought to the debate thus far?



[ QUOTE ]
flat points and permanent wound channels.

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OK, this is a good one. Permanent? I don't know what that is. Nothing is a permanent in a soft tissue hydrostatic shock channel. Are you saying that it opens a bigger hole and stays that way? If so, what the heck does that have to do with anything. I have no doubt that these bullets penetrate well as that is what they are designed to do. For elk and deer, I would rather have a mushrooming bullet. I remember the first pic of you on here last September when you showed your whitetail. Shot with an AMAX wasn't it. TIsk tisk, should have used a Flat point!


[ QUOTE ]
BTW -- if you had a flatnosed 30 cal bullet, and a spire point bullet, which one do you think would transfer more energy, and cause more damage when driven at the same speed?


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Well, when I have seen ballistic gelatin shot with both types in slow motion, the soft point has caused a much bigger (wider) void in the jello in the middle of the penetration with a smaller void immediately into it. The flat base bullet had a larger void initially, but got smaller the farther it went into the gelatin. It did penetrate farther than the soft point (this was a fact I never disputed by the way).



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Basically i posted the info above, because you had no right to jump on dave and "laugh so hard you dislocated your jaw" because HE WAS RIGHT.

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I have a right to respond however I want and #$%^ what you think I SHOULD do!


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You sure like talking down to people, even though the FACTS contradict your OPINION huh?


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This is the best one yet. I talk down to people?? Excuse me sir but I have paid attention to just about every post you have ever left since I became a member and I believe you have never said anything positive to ANYONE on this board without giving some pessimistic response along with it. My friends and I have commented on this many times to each other. SOmeone could get on here and show a picture of the longest kill they have had in their lives and there would be 5 pages of other guys congratulating the person and then you get on here and tell them that they should have held the camera differently and used macro mode. Or someone shoots a small 3 shot group that is tiny for the first time and there are 3 pages of congratulations from others and then good old jb100br comes on and says something like, "why did you even show us that since it is not a five shot group."
Me talk down to people, no buddy that's your job. I have kept a very professional and polite(until this one) way to my posts all along. I treat everyone with respect--even you up until now. You seem like the kind of guy that must always try to bring people down in their endeavors and I ABSOLUTELY LOATHE THAT MENTALITY!!!!!!


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sheesh, feel like im back in high school sometimes...

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Well what can I say. If your not going to defend yourself, no one is going to do it for you. I will defend myself and others who are the underdogs evertime I can.

In closing, let me just say that I feel terrible this topic has progressed the way it has and I feel partly responsible for it. SOrry to everyone else who has had to see it. Maybe someday when Jason has the opportunity to shoot at 600 lbs critters out west in mile wide canyons we can talk again like civil people. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[jb1000br]

Re: Do you want a exit wound???? *DELETED*

Post deleted by jb1000br

 

[LB]

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A mule deer on the other hand must be hit in the shoulder because the way they bound instead of gait, they can make it away with 3 legs.



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Well, you got that part right and it blows me out of the water, to a certain extent because I have not killed that many elk. I know that a mule deer can (personal exp.) run a mile and a half with a broken leg, and I avoid that shot whenever possible.

I have never advocated FMJ bullets, so I hope you didn't misunderstand what I was saying? But, due to the vagarities of wind and up or down hill angles, I find a shoulder hit (with a spitzer) to be a little dicy.

Might be old-fashioned but that heart/lung area looks very inviting, to me. ie: nice and big.

I'd rather not get into gut shots, that's not a fair argument, for either opinion.

Good hunting. LB

 

[lerch]

Well crap /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

As the original starter of this topic I guess the resposibility falls on my shoulders. I was just curious as to what other peoples opinions were towards bullet pentration and tissue damage and my intentions were never to have it turn to this. Some people have posted ideas and opinions that I do not agree with and that is fine, I really don't care about it. My own opinions on this topic fall on the same side of the fence that Goodgroupers do but I guess in the long run this doesnt make me or him any more right than how wrong I think Jbr1000 is becuase this is just our opinions. I will not argue that a 400+ grain bullet will hit like a mac truck up close and I don't think anyone wold argue that a large bullet expaning properly in a game animal would be devastating. All in all I am sorry for my part in starting this argument but if nothing else at least a few people got to air out thier opinions.

Steve Elmenhorst /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[goodgrouper]

Can you see any contradiction here?
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yes, it lets a bigger PERMANENT hole.

all the hydrostatic damage is just STRETCH, and comes back to shape for the most part.


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These two lines are back to back in your post.



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You make fun of a guy for stating a fact you didnt agree with and I'M the one that is pessimistic?


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Being pessimistic and finding something funny in one's post are two totally different things. If we can not afford one another some slack in the possible misundertanding of written text, then we are all skrewed.


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it was actually a match king,

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STill a mushrooming, non flat point bullet right?




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then come right back an tell me i shouldnt post the way i do ...


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I never told you HOW to post, just pointed out HOW you post. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif



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i have never chastized anyone for not shooting enough shots in a group -- I may have said "more shots would give a better representation" but i have never belittled anyone like you just did above.

Im about learning, and helping other do things right if i can -- and guess what, when Lablover posted his mismeasured groups, YES I commented on his technique, and it HELPED him learn to do it right! We even talked about it in person when he came here to shoot, You are much more ****ed about that than he was! I was just helping him LEARN, and I DID!


[/ QUOTE ]


These were just the first two examples that came to mind. THere were too many of them to list them all. I have had people email me saying they thought they screwed up by the way YOU posted a response to their questions in the past. That is not a good thing.




[ QUOTE ]
you also just LEARNED what a permanent wound channel is!

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I have? Maybe I have seen what you think it is but I have already stated that it has nothing to do with anything about the post "do you want an exit hole?" and soft tissue does not allow any hole to be a fixed size without stretch.



[ QUOTE ]
camera...macro HUH?

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You tell me. I have never heard of this function. It was in your response to one of the moag posts I left here on 2000 yard shooting. Check it out if you please, I promise it's there.




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Apparently you already know everything :


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I dare you to find this statement in any of my 600 some odd posts. I have never said or even hinted at that statement. In fact, what you might find is phrases like, "the more I learn, the less I know" and "my view of that has switched 180 degrees since learning more about it."




[ QUOTE ]
so i'll quit trying to help...

[/ QUOTE ]

Do as you want. I will not and can not force you to do anything.