delemma...what 338 chambered rifle to start with?

[Dr. John]

question regarding the ar30. I believe the grip is like the one on their ar-10 rifles. is it possible to replace that grip with one of those target style grips with the palm rest at the bottom? (I really don't know what the name of the grip is) seems like this would really be comfortable.

 

[xring01]

well, after reading alot of posts on the AR30...I went out and bought one today...I will get it in 10 days.

Dr. John, I was told today that the grip is the same as the AR15 and the the after market grips will fit...

However there is a bar coming from the end of the stock that might interfere, but it is aluminum and can be easily modified.

Also the triggers are Shilen triggers and are easily adjusted.

Now I need to buy dies, brass and bullets...

 

[Dr. John]

lucky man. someday it will be my turn. hope you got a good price.

 

[xring01]

Dr. John,

Living in CA everything costs more...I researched as much as I had time to...

There are not very many of them in SoCal...The ones that I found they were quite proud of them...

Another thing, I was told by several(trusted) people that they were on back order and were not able to get any more for a while.

Regardless, It was the lowest cost I could find in a 338Lapua.

 

[Brent]

John,
The AR30 grip can be replaced with an AR10, AR15 grip, with slight modification to the grip. The aluminum extension can be trimmed back as needed.

The grip area on the inside top-front of the AR15-AR10 has an inset square corner, the AR30 is radiused where this sets into the receiver. The square corners must be filed down and a radius shaped on the new grip. The nice thing about this is you can make the grip more vertical at the same time you make this modification. If you think about it even for a minute as you study it, you'll see what needs to be done to make it more vertical, shapeing it in the right places to fit right when rotated more.

The grip you're talking about IS the one I'd go with, it's much more comfortable. My brother had one on his DPMS Panther. My Dad's lefty so he had to make do without one...

I didn't know they were Shilen triggers, Armalite tell you this?

Did you buy the 338?


......


DC,
Talked to Ray R. for about an hour a little while ago. He said that Herb there had blown a few up. "One" was a Remington, but it was an older 710 he said, before he knew him, so he didn't know the details on it.

He didn't know the details on the others either, but said the 338/378 was a Weatherby MK V action. One was Ruger. I still have no idea what he did to any of them, except he put fast powder in them, wiped the excess off the top and atempted to blow them up. When asked, he said, "the lugs did not shear from them, no".

I told Ray what determines lug shear strength rating, he did not know. He asked me how I knew that. I told him Dan Lilja has an example and explains how it's done on his site as others, go check it out. He said powder charges are too much on the big cases or the like, which is wrong, that's how that conversation got started...

He said anything over 70,000 psi brass would just fail, liquify or something to that effect. Some might, and that's close, but he was a little set back when I told him you mentioned 75-80k psi... Also when I told him I had tested up to 75 and 80 myself.

I'm not sure which, but one of you has been a student of the others for quite a while. I thought that at moments I was talking to you.

Ray's probably knowledgable on many aspects of shooting and gun building, but there are things he believes and says that are... well, I leave it at that and just say I like my smith.

I did talk to Ray. Herb died, partly as a result of his own carelessness, and partly because he was disabled and reteat was more difficult than it would you or I. From spilling powder all over for years in a certain spot, I forget where, said powder ignited while drilling a hole with a cobalt bit in the concrete floor. He didn't make it out.

If anyone reading this has concerns and what this guy Herb really did, and to what actions, call Ray and listen to the story as he tells it, then ask for the specific details.

I'm quite sure the guy in the grave is the only one who knows the whole story, more now than ever. It actually was just more confirmation that the action will blow before the lugs will fail, something I already knew though. Now, if you want to call my smith (907-376-5261) Dave Caboth, and ask him where he taught gunsmith school at and what they learned from destructive testing firearms there over the years, I'd do just that too.

 

[Darryl Cassel]

Brent

Glad you had a chance to talk to Ray.

Herb and I was shooting at Williamsport long before Ray had ever shot there and I had a chance to talk with Herb for a few years in the late 80s and early 90s.

It was mostly about his testing procedures which I told him then, he was looking for trouble.
There was a Rem 700 that let go on Herb also as I remember him talking about it. The last one to go was a Md. 70 and I believe he was shooting a 220 Swift at the time.

Anyway, the "fact" remains, the Rems did let go but, under extreme pressures.

Not sure how well the customs would have held up but, I feel they would have faired much better.

Glad you talked to Ray as I'm sure he said about what I did on the forum.

That should clear up (a little) the point I was making or at least stated.

I don't give false information on here and never did. We are all working with a bomb in these chambers and I would hate to see anyone hurt, especially me.
I run the pressures up but, I use large custom actions in those rifles.

Good shooting to all.

Later
DC

As an add on ----I think the problem is, we (you and I) are two different types of hunter/shooters and our equipment is not the same at all.
You have mostly lighter tactical stuff and I have mostly "Heavy Benchrest" style longrange hunting guns and guns built for 1000 yard compititions. We are mostly stationary and have bench mounted guns while hunting, where as you have lighter movable style guns.
This is a complete different setup. Our guns weigh 50# to 70# have large Custom actions and large 1.450" daimeter (and larger) barrels up to 40" long.
We can and do push the pressure envelope and can do it safely at the expense of a few pieces of brass. We shoot much further then you do because of our heavier stationary equipment and have been successful at it.
I believe you said you were comfortable at 600 to 700 yards at the most. Where you stop, we begin, so our styles of hunting are much different and the equipment is to.

You on the other hand must watch those pressures closely as your actions and barrels are lighter and I understand where your coming from.
I to have what I call "carry guns" with bi-pods and do not overload them like on the big stuff that we use.

Hope that clears up some things here?

[ 01-09-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

 

[Ian M]

Darryl,
I know a guy who puts on a welder's helmet, heavy leather gloves and one of those padded leather aprons when he tests handloads in his pistols - quite a sight! His guns have let go so this is a reasonable precaution...

You are right-on describing your shooting challenges vs those of other guys. With all due respect for some very serious shooters on this board, most guys could never comprehend what training, skill and equipment is necessary to release that last shot, fifth, tenth or whatever to make a perfect score or world record group. I have a hell of a time breaking the fifty shot when I have a good group going, can't imagine what it would be like to have so much riding on one bullet.

I believe that we would have to walk in those boots to get into that level of shooting. I also think that the level of dedication is not comprehensible to most shooters, because few people focus their lives to that degree.

Would sure be interesting if someone could quantify the degree of challenge between firing the final shot to make a new world benchrest or Camp Perry type record at 100 or at 1000, compared to making a really long shot on a big game animal. They are both one shot deals, that make or break dreams.

I have shot in international competitions (Bisley for instance) in the past and tasted a small degree of that intensity. That is another world from my current shooting life, but clanging steel plates out to 1000 yards and killing deer out at 600 yards is offering the fun and challenges that I can afford and handle today...

Wyo obviously takes a lot of pride in his equipment and this site has enabled us to watch him (and others) grow into LR shooting. Old farts like yourself have pretty much been there, have learned to talk to the talk and you probably sometimes get exasperated when others do not understand some of the intracasies. Shooting "conditions" is an example - believe it or not I do that when we are trying to tip over 12 inch plates at 1000 yards. But understanding the concept, and putting it into real use are two totally different things, and both are very foreign to many shooters. Reading mirage and other natural wind indicators is one of the biggest challenges. I have been in awe of this skill when I shot with Steve Suttles, ex Viet Nam marine sniper who sees wind in MOA, looks through a scope and sees dots and a target but his mind does the math or correlates his unbeleivable experience and speaks out MOA - that is an awsome ability to have achieved.
January is a bitch, too much time to think about this **** instead of pullling the trigger

 

[Dr. John]

no, I haven't picked up a 338 yet. It will probably be sometime late spring/summer. just researching what is available. so far it is between:
338 Ultra mag Sendero
338-378 weatherby Accumark
338 lapua AR30

tough decision. the sendero would cost me a little more because I would want to change the stock to a McMillan and add a muzzle brake.
the weatherby is a great cartridge, and all I would have to do is change the stock. the AR30 is ready to go as is. and I really like the looks of the AR30. Just read an article in the Special Weapons for Military and Police about the AR30 and the Blazer M93. I am more hooked on the AR30 at this point.

does anyone know if the muzzle brake of the AR30 is removable? If used for hunting at not so far distances that brake would make ear plugs necessary (I think, never heard it)

so...I am still undecided. don't you just hate decisions like this.

as for availablility, I have seen a few on Guns America. I am assuming that those are still available.

I even start to wonder if I should go with something in the 300 ultra mag instead of the big 338's. I just need someone to talk me into something.

 

[xring01]

Dr. John,

Everyone needs a long range 30Cal...its one of the most versatile tools a shooter can own.

Your delima, if you do not have a long range 30Cal, I would say this is were you should start. Before you go to the 338.

 

[DontKickDontKill]

I never got to meet Herb, but listening to these stories, he sounds like an old kook, that I would have loved to get to know.

As an aside talking about Ray R. he seems to me like a guy who worked as a machinist all his life, and then developed a gun bug. So him knowing about sear strength would be doubtful, I think he told my friends, when the floor plate blows open, now you know your getting close....

 

[xring01]

Lemay,

This is strickly my Opinion...With a 30 Cal, you have the choice of bullets from 110grn-240grns...That is versatile, with some recoil.

Now the 338 has bullets from 180-300, it is versatile, but alot of people have not built up the tolerance for the heavier recoil of a 338.

When you start, there is a whole lot to learn, learning takes practice/ammo regardless if you reload or not, 30Cal ammo is less expensive to shoot that 338 cal ammo.

Anyway, I am no expert, but for someone new to this, I think they should learn the basics before going to the larger Cals.

 

[Dr. John]

xring01,
don't worry. I have shot quite a bit with high recoiling rifles. my current main rifle is a custom 458 win mag which is able to put 3 shots in a 3/8 in cluster at 100 yards while on the bench....no muzzle brake. there is a recent post of 458 target...that is mine. so recoil is really not a factor. I don't enjoy getting pounded but I can handle it. a 338 with a brake would be a pussycat compared to my 458. I just hear that the 338 bucks the wind better.

 

[dgr416]

I have two Weatherby Accumarks in 338-378 weatherby.One rifle has shot 1/4" group with 250 gr Noslers with 110 grs of reloader 25 at 100 yards.I love those guns,best buy I have ever gotten.I found brass for about $1.25 by looking around.It weighs about 9.25 punds with a 6.5x20 Nikon ,sling,ammo and canes gun chaps on it.It is a joy to shoot kicks more like 270 to me with break on.You do have to clean them every 50-60 shots and I wear muffs and plugs target shooting.I carry ear plugs to hunt with.I got both for $1000 each by looking around.The brass last forever.I loaded one 17 times before I chickened out.It is the best factory made long range hunting rifle I have found.I can carry it cause its not too heavy and the stock is not too wide like Sendero .It has done way beyond what I thought it would dnce you get rifle and some brass other coat are not that much.I looded at Sendero 338 ultra mag but it was heavier and stock didnt feel as good as Weatherby Accumark.

 

[Darryl Cassel]

Hello Don't kick

Yes, Herb was a character and I do mean a character.

As per Ray Romain who stopped by today to vist for a few hours,
He was a machinist for many years and during that time he was a gunsmith in West Virginia where he had a large gun shop to. He moved to PA and continued as a Machinist at a large company until he retired and was and still is a gunsmith at his shop at home.

He has learned many tricks over the years and will tell it to you straight on with no BS.
He has built many fine rifles and also shoots at Williamsport from time to time.

There are procedures he "won't" do and many are to protect him from any legal action. He will tell you if your wasting your money or not. Many procedures he won't do and is to your benifit.

Anyway, you missed a real character in Herb Miller.

Later
DC