You would like the 221 Fireball even more.
Decreasing bullet runout during bullet seating
- Thread starter B-P-UU
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You would like the 221 Fireball even more.
I have tested hornady against my sinclair and it does not read as precise, shows less run out. Friend has one and checked several times with same cartridges SORRY hadnt got to Mikers post, yes as you posted after that,reads less run out,coparativly
Mike,
Conceptually this makes sense, but I have a few questions.
- Since my collet-sized neck runout is similar to my neck runout with a bullet seated, are you implying the bullet jacket is deforming (since the variance is not pushed to the OD)?
- I see there are 2 types of Sinclair expander mandrels for the expander die; do you reccomend the 'neck turning tool mandrel' (.002" under caliber) or 'expander mandrels' (.001" under caliber)?
I actually shot some of the reloads this weekend and put them into 2 categories; runout from .001 to .003 and runout from .004 to .006. Both 5 shot groups shot similar POI and similar accuracy (100 YDS). The loads with less runout were slightly more accurate and the higher runout group had 1 flier (considering the shooting conditions of -15 air temp plus windchill, the flier could have been shooter error). The 5-shot group with lower runout shot just over 0.5 MOA. While I would like to have them all in the same hole, I am satisfied with the results.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
You did not say that seated bullet runout was low in runout. You said runout grew as measured off seated bullets, while it was low before seating bullets(I assume measured off necks)
wallypedal
Active Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2006
- Messages
- 33
I only load for a few different case sizes. Got interested in concentricity, searched the forums and looked at the various devices. I made my own from hardwood. I routed three different depth v- grooves to accommodate different diameter cases, from .223 up to the WSM's. One of the things I think I saw on the Sinclair was the distance between the contact bearings was constant, and so there is a difference in where on the circumference of the case those bearings touch. Somebody who owns one can tell me!
If that is true, then a very large case is supported more on the bottom, a smaller farther up the sides - I sized the grooves to allow me to support any case where I want to. Made an adjustable stop system to regulate where in the groove the case base stops.
The dial indicator holder allows for moving the quill laterally anywhere from case base to bullet tip. It has been an education, and pretty enjoyable.
The terms runout and concentricity are sometimes used interchangeably, but maybe shouldn't be. I think there are 'banana' cases that are that way due to inconsistent wall thicknesses, and it doesn't matter whose sizing die you use, they will want to be bananas again, and we shouldn't blame the die.
I worked at consistent loading, did some neck turning, and pitched cases that just would not give less than .005 bullet runout. Like the thread title suggests, it was like the runout was being introduced somehow during the seating process. I pitched not many, but a few. I found like others, that cases which had been checked after firing and resizing and had little runout would still show .004" or .005" bullet runout. Perplexing, so I just blamed it on the banana phenomenon, and used them for foulers.
I learned a lot, became a better tool user and assembler, and don't check concentricity/runout anymore
. I'm satisfied my loads are good enough for my needs, for sure the standard we work towards, and understandably different for each of us.
If that is true, then a very large case is supported more on the bottom, a smaller farther up the sides - I sized the grooves to allow me to support any case where I want to. Made an adjustable stop system to regulate where in the groove the case base stops.
The dial indicator holder allows for moving the quill laterally anywhere from case base to bullet tip. It has been an education, and pretty enjoyable.
The terms runout and concentricity are sometimes used interchangeably, but maybe shouldn't be. I think there are 'banana' cases that are that way due to inconsistent wall thicknesses, and it doesn't matter whose sizing die you use, they will want to be bananas again, and we shouldn't blame the die.
I worked at consistent loading, did some neck turning, and pitched cases that just would not give less than .005 bullet runout. Like the thread title suggests, it was like the runout was being introduced somehow during the seating process. I pitched not many, but a few. I found like others, that cases which had been checked after firing and resizing and had little runout would still show .004" or .005" bullet runout. Perplexing, so I just blamed it on the banana phenomenon, and used them for foulers.
I learned a lot, became a better tool user and assembler, and don't check concentricity/runout anymore
. I'm satisfied my loads are good enough for my needs, for sure the standard we work towards, and understandably different for each of us.I had a set of Redding 223AI dies that gave me a fit. I put an O-ring between the lock nut and top of the press, then spun the case 1/2 turn when seating. Didn't have a gauge, but you could roll them across a counter and watch them wobble. The targets afterwards told sealed the deal...
etisll40
Well-Known Member
wtt
johnhhernan
Well-Known Member
What is run-out?
In the world of ammo making, runout is the measure of co-axial misalignment of the centerline of the bullet/cartridge to the centerline of the bore in the barrel. It is measureable in the finished cartridge using a runout gauge. In layman's terms, it's wobble.
If you roll your ammo across a mirror and look closely at the tip of the bullet and its reflection you should not be able to detect any variance as it rolls across. Runout less than .002" is acceptable for accurate loads. More than this and accuracy will suffer. Several manufacturers make runout gauges, I like the Forster system. The tool is useful to identify steps in your ammo making process where runout is introduced.
Some sources of runout include case sizing operations (pulling the expander ball up through the neck) and bullet seating (tilt) where each step will cause or add to a non-concentric combination. Variances in neck thickness in the same cartridge will cause runout too. That's why people who are interested in extreme accuracy turn necks to ensure uniformity.
Specialty dies are well worth the investment for reducing runout. The Forster and Redding seat dies with the tight-tolerance sliding sleeve are excellent. They provide co-axial alignment of the bullet to the captured case during seating. Neck bushing dies have benefit as well.
Eliminating runout is what reloaders chase their tails over. Low runout takes a significant variable out of the shooting equation when striving for accuracy.
If you roll your ammo across a mirror and look closely at the tip of the bullet and its reflection you should not be able to detect any variance as it rolls across. Runout less than .002" is acceptable for accurate loads. More than this and accuracy will suffer. Several manufacturers make runout gauges, I like the Forster system. The tool is useful to identify steps in your ammo making process where runout is introduced.
Some sources of runout include case sizing operations (pulling the expander ball up through the neck) and bullet seating (tilt) where each step will cause or add to a non-concentric combination. Variances in neck thickness in the same cartridge will cause runout too. That's why people who are interested in extreme accuracy turn necks to ensure uniformity.
Specialty dies are well worth the investment for reducing runout. The Forster and Redding seat dies with the tight-tolerance sliding sleeve are excellent. They provide co-axial alignment of the bullet to the captured case during seating. Neck bushing dies have benefit as well.
Eliminating runout is what reloaders chase their tails over. Low runout takes a significant variable out of the shooting equation when striving for accuracy.
johnhhernan
Well-Known Member
That was a very good explanation thans flashole
