Cut rifling or button?

[Mikecr]

After lapping they go to contour, and after that they get checked via air guage

This is where things can get ugly..
Different barrel makers use different procedures, with steps in different order.

Barrels should be cut(if cut) & lapped AFTER contouring, as contouring is an action that distorts internal dimensions. And 'airguaging' is not an actual measurement of bore dimensions, but merely a comparative quick check for assumed consistency and marking of 'tightest end'.

Many barrel makers put little efforts into hunting contour accuracy, because they are rewarded enough with BR barrel orders(which are easier).
We just make it too eay for barrel makers, and so they've popped up everywhere, dividing up the market.

 

[RoyB]

"A guy named Boyer uses button rifled barrels from Shilen, and calls them "hummers!""

Even a blind squirrel can find an acorn given enough time!

Tony buys a "few dozen" barrels and shoots them all and keeps the hummers........

I've even seen a few Remingtons shoot pretty over the years with their hammer forged barrels. It can happen.......

But every single cut rifled Kreiger barrel I've ever bought was a "hummer"........I can't say that about ANY of the button or hammer forged barrels.

I've witnessed barrels being made at Savage Arms with the pulled button method. I can't imagine how you could push the button through..............But I know it's done. When I questioned this at Savage I was told those that push have VERY shallow grooves.

BTW....When you visit Savage, they will show you and tell you anything you want to know.........Except the formula for the lube used on their button rifled barrels. They claim it is the secret to the amazing accuracy they can get out of their barrels.........

Buttons:

Pulled Button Machine:

 

[screech]

Mikes right, I read my post and what I said made sense to me at the point in time. But yes the cut guys do generally contour before they cut. Only reason you cant with a button is you need the material to make an even pull. That and its harder for a cut guy to air guage beacuse you basically have to build a button for the different twist and what not for the barrel to guage it.

 

[Gene]

Lets face it; buying any barrel is a crapshoot. And...lets not forget the other equation..... a good barrel won't shoot well if the gunsmith does not do his job. I have had barrels that were chambered poorly - eggshell profile on one. TB goes thru a lot of barrels to find the right one, but he also hires top notch gunsmiths to do the job. On the other hand, the best smith cannot salvage a manufacturing reject.

 

[Trickymissfit]

"A guy named Boyer uses button rifled barrels from Shilen, and calls them "hummers!""

Even a blind squirrel can find an acorn given enough time!

Tony buys a "few dozen" barrels and shoots them all and keeps the hummers........

I've even seen a few Remingtons shoot pretty over the years with their hammer forged barrels. It can happen.......

But every single cut rifled Kreiger barrel I've ever bought was a "hummer"........I can't say that about ANY of the button or hammer forged barrels.

I've witnessed barrels being made at Savage Arms with the pulled button method. I can't imagine how you could push the button through..............But I know it's done. When I questioned this at Savage I was told those that push have VERY shallow grooves.

BTW....When you visit Savage, they will show you and tell you anything you want to know.........Except the formula for the lube used on their button rifled barrels. They claim it is the secret to the amazing accuracy they can get out of their barrels.........

Buttons:

Pulled Button Machine:

and I thought our gun drills were funky! Also find it interesting in the coolant system they are getting by with! I have not seen a tank that small in thirty years! We used tanks at least twice as big, with multi banks of Rosedale filters with another set of highpressure filter banks (one or three micron I think). The pumps varied from operation to operation, but we always ran from 1450 psi to 2800 psi in the bushing boxes. The coolants we used were custom mixed for each operation, and even the operator didn't know what was in the mix. The filters were changed twice a week on the Rosedales (went to a new filter daily), and the high pressure filters went about seven days. Some machines used a gear pump system, and others used multistaged hydraulic pumps. Pumps were shot in about ten months.
we also used an oil cooler on many of our gun drills

Reamers were very similar to Maypols in operation, and extremely accurate if the bore was good. Hone work was done on Sunnen power hones or a custom built Elderado. Coolant looked like it started out as mineral seal with some additives. The grind on the drills and reamers was very secretive, and tool sales folks were never allowed in the area where they were sharpened. When a drill or reamer went bad they were completely destroyed, and then scraped. I found gun drilling to be a black art, and still don't understand a lot of it.
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

Mikes right, I read my post and what I said made sense to me at the point in time. But yes the cut guys do generally contour before they cut. Only reason you cant with a button is you need the material to make an even pull. That and its harder for a cut guy to air guage beacuse you basically have to build a button for the different twist and what not for the barrel to guage it.

when your cutting a few hundred barrels a year the gauge isn't all that hard to do. You build a master blank that's about 4" long, and cast a blank to it. The blank last a month or so, and you replace it.
gary

 

[Boss Hoss]

I offer my apology for my error! I made two phone calls this morning, and do stand corrected. BUT! I'm now left with another thought. Most folks pull the die thru the barrel, but there are a small few that push the die thru the bore (who I don't know, but was informed of this). How would one push a die thru a barrel and keep it uniform? Looks like the tool pressure alone would cause catastropic events inside the bore.

Anyway for those who know, and for those who don't know. A guy named Boyer uses button rifled barrels from Shilen, and calls them "hummers!"

always learning!
gary

My God Man---that is barrel making 101!! Also, the method used by Krieger is Single Point Cut which does not INTRODUCE Stress as the Button Pulling process does….. In all barrels no matter how they are "rifled" if stress relieved properly they will perform.

 

[Trickymissfit]

My God Man---that is barrel making 101!! Also, the method used by Krieger is Single Point Cut which does not INTRODUCE Stress as the Button Pulling process does….. In all barrels no matter how they are "rifled" if stress relieved properly they will perform.

A button introduces a compressive stress. A compressive stress in a piece of metal is always a good thing; no matter what it's job intention ( you learn that in your first semester of Applied Mechanics and Physics). Why do you think they shot blast a piece of steel with steel shot? (to induce a compressive stress into the surface of the metal) When you cut metal you also introduce a slight compressive stress with the initial contact of the cutting tip, but you soon relieve much more stress than this initial amount as the chip is being pushed off the metal, so in one way your stress relieving a piece of metal. There's no way outta this as the stress is in the metal right from the start. Ask your Valenite salesman next time you see him. When you relieve stress the shape of the metal also changes (may only be .000025", but it certianly does). The more you relieve, the more it changes (this is why much precision machining will often go thru a normalizing process, and then a finish machining of a few thousandths). The question here is that after you drill the barrel and relieve a bunch of stress (you said so), and then probably do a slight straitening (adding stress). Then cut or button rifle the barrel, do you straiten it again? You won't need to do much if any with one method for sure because everything comes in concentric, but with the other the stress relieved or added is all over the place.

just food for thought as I've done some gun drilling in my ripe old age
gary

 

[Boss Hoss]

A button introduces a compressive stress. A compressive stress in a piece of metal is always a good thing; no matter what it's job intention ( you learn that in your first semester of Applied Mechanics and Physics). Why do you think they shot blast a piece of steel with steel shot? (to induce a compressive stress into the surface of the metal) When you cut metal you also introduce a slight compressive stress with the initial contact of the cutting tip, but you soon relieve much more stress than this initial amount as the chip is being pushed off the metal, so in one way your stress relieving a piece of metal. There's no way outta this as the stress is in the metal right from the start. Ask your Valenite salesman next time you see him. When you relieve stress the shape of the metal also changes (may only be .000025", but it certianly does). The more you relieve, the more it changes (this is why much precision machining will often go thru a normalizing process, and then a finish machining of a few thousandths). The question here is that after you drill the barrel and relieve a bunch of stress (you said so), and then probably do a slight straitening (adding stress). Then cut or button rifle the barrel, do you straiten it again? You won't need to do much if any with one method for sure because everything comes in concentric, but with the other the stress relieved or added is all over the place.

just food for thought as I've done some gun drilling in my ripe old age
gary

I really hate to do this to you however, I sent this to shall we say an industry expert with qualifications exceeding or on par with anyone mentioned in this thread shooting or Smithing (you can PM me about who it is) and these are his comments to your above post. People may read what you post and take it for fact when it is not. You have a lot to learn as most of us do but you seem to make more retractions than most.

"The guy is just a xxxxxxx......no modern match barrel maker straightens their barrels. Krieger's undergo double cryo-stress relief and all major pull or push button barrels are stress relieved after rifling. What is his point? Tell him his ignorance is causing all who read his crap "STRESS""

And stress is not "ALWAYS" a good thing. You take a piece of plate clamp it to a mill and face a 1/4 inch off, remove the clamps and have it turn into a bowl instead of remaining flat. How could that be a good thing?????
UBER XXXXXXX!!!!!!!'

 

[Trickymissfit]

I really hate to do this to you however, I sent this to shall we say an industry expert with qualifications exceeding or on par with anyone mentioned in this thread shooting or Smithing (you can PM me about who it is) and these are his comments to your above post. People may read what you post and take it for fact when it is not. You have a lot to learn as most of us do but you seem to make more retractions than most.

"The guy is just a xxxxxxx......no modern match barrel maker straightens their barrels. Krieger's undergo double cryo-stress relief and all major pull or push button barrels are stress relieved after rifling. What is his point? Tell him his ignorance is causing all who read his crap "STRESS""

And stress is not "ALWAYS" a good thing. You take a piece of plate clamp it to a mill and face a 1/4 inch off, remove the clamps and have it turn into a bowl instead of remaining flat. How could that be a good thing?????
UBER XXXXXXX!!!!!!!'

opinions will vary, but if you say so