Crosshair levelling

[Ridgerunner665]

Wheeler Engineering Professional Reticle Leveling System

I just bought one of these a couple of weeks ago...been shooting LR for years with scopes only "eyeball" mounted and only had minor issues but figured this tool would simplify things...and it did.

Checked the scopes on all my long and medium range rifles (5 of them)...all were unlevel to some degree, some worse than others but none were very bad at all.

Mounted the Vortex on my new 30-06 with this kit, used the front scope base to level the rifle..."shot the box" at 200 yards, perfect square.

I believe a lot of folks tend to overthink things sometimes...these neat lil kits speed up proper mounting in that you don't have to get yourself crosseyed from looking through the scope to level it and they ARE worth the money.

The caveat is...in all those years of shooting, up until the last 5 years....I never dialed a scope, hell, never owned a scope that cost over $200...the came the internet (for me), first I bought an S&B (overkill, very nice scope, but not what I expected....I think I expected something along the lines of Hubble for that price tag....found I didn't need it, sold it), bought a $600 Leupold (another letdown, nice scope, just didn't see the $600 price tag as worth it...sold it)...had some good luck with Nikons in the $300-$400 range...the last one I bought was the Vortex Viper HS (non LR) 4-16x44mm for $500...its a little early to tell but I think this scope is the "sweet spot"...does the job at a reasonable price.

Not dialing explains why I never had much trouble with slightly unlevel reticles...but so far the Vortex seems good to go and was bench mounted and leveled.

 

[dbhostler]

you are meaning at 1 set range not over various ranges correct?

Correct Joe. I usually do this testing at 100 yds to minimize variables.
db

 

[woods]

Several ways to skin a cat, this is the way I do it

I use an EXD device to get the cant out of the rifle when it is in the vise

Brownells Search : Search Results for "exd" - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools - BROWNELLS

it aligns the bore and the scope centerline so that the cant is removed

While the rifle is in the vise I aim it out the door to a 4' level sitting on a fence 30 yards away. Rotate the scope to align the crosshairs while maintaining the EXD bubble level.

Good time to install a ScopLevel like Mike suggested

If you are concerned about an awkward hold because you like to hold your rifle at a cant when shooting, I wouldn't be. The difference will be small and it will become natural to hold your rifle uncanted with the ScopLevel which folds down when not in use

 

[SidecarFlip]

Neither scope rail nor turret top directly correspond to either crosshair, or elevation adjustment.

Without precipitating a war here, please elaborate on that comment I want to know how you reached that conclusion and your factual analysis, not a statement based on opinion, but actual facts and geometry.

The mechanics of the optic directly correspond to the position of the reticle in relationship to the center axis of the gun, always, that is a constant and that constant, in order to be at right angles to the vertical axis, must also be parallel to the horizontal plane of the receiver and rail (so long as the rail to receiver mounting points are drilled and tapped on centerline of the receiver and the rail is drilled on center and the mounting holes are parallel to the rail's edge.....

I want to know how the rail or the top of the elevation turret isn't directly impacted by the above mechanics.

I have to hear this.......

 

[SidecarFlip]

I'm going to emphasize that the accuracy of any operation that involves squaring of the reticle cross marks (etched or inlaid) is only as good as the spirit level (vial) thats used to determine if, in fact, level is level and consumer level vials with painted on indicator marks and plastic tubes aren't all that good in the first place.

Accuracy in any operation is only as good as the most accurate device employed in that operation and no better.

For our use, consumer grade vials are fine but in the grand scheme of things, those vials are like a dirt road compared to a pool table top.....

 

[Mikecr]

I want to know how the rail or the top of the elevation turret isn't directly impacted by the above mechanics.

I never said the moon & the stars didn't impact reticle relationships.
What I believe that I've implied is that they JUST DON'T MATTER.
What matters is the reticle or adjustment plumb, and these are independent of all else, including the gun.

I do the same as Woods(also with an EXD), for bench guns that are fired free recoil, off level bench rests, with exception that I level elevation adjustment instead of the crosshair.
I only hold off for wind.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I never said the moon & the stars didn't impact reticle relationships.
What I believe that I've implied is that they JUST DON'T MATTER.
What matters is the reticle or adjustment plumb, and these are independent of all else, including the gun.

I do the same as Woods(also with an EXD), for bench guns that are fired free recoil, off level bench rests, with exception that I level elevation adjustment instead of the crosshair.
I only hold off for wind.

I don't see anything implied.....
"Neither scope rail nor turret top directly correspond to either crosshair, or elevation adjustment."
But rather a statement and it certainly does matter, in fact, the farther away the PIO, the more misalignment scope reticle cant causes. It certainly does matter and it (misalignment) compounds itself as the range increases.

In fact, they do..... in as much as the scope reticle is mechanically married to both the elevation erector and the scope body is mechanically married to the rail/ring mounts and the receiver.

The erector mechanism for the elevation operates in a vertical plane only as does the windage adjustment...operates in a horizontial plane.

Whatever blows your dress up I guess.

 

[Mikecr]

We're not talking about misalignments and what they could all add up to. We're talking about a standard that is -leveling of the sight.
I set my Tubb T2k up with a 7deg cant, with the elevation leveled, and the gun shot fine this way per design. You could use an offset base to shoot a righthand gun left-eyed, while the crosshair or adjustment is plumb. The effective scope height, at level, would need to be accounted for here, but level it still is, and that's what we're talking about.
Plumb sighting that results in plumb aim.

I don't care if the bases are plumb with the action, rings, or stock, because I don't aim with them.
And I don't need a plumb crosshair with my dot scopes.
Would I like for all to line up square? Yes, because it affects my zero,, not my level.

Maybe we're just missing each others context.
I would like to have a more precise field leveling device, that is tough enough and practical. It would likely be a pendulum, which I'd have to R&D.
But so far ScopLevel, setup my way, works, as I have tested to discover that I can't shoot among hills without it.

 

[dbhostler]

Question for you EXD users, when the V blocks are tightened down, how much play can be introduced, .001", .010", .100" ? In other words, how ridged is it ? I've never seen one before and yes, I live under a rock lol.
db

 

[woods]

Question for you EXD users, when the V blocks are tightened down, how much play can be introduced, .001", .010", .100" ? In other words, how ridged is it ? I've never seen one before and yes, I live under a rock lol.
db

It doesn't attach, it just sits there. I use a rubber band around the EXD back to the elevation turret to keep it in place since my target level out on the fence is slightly downhill

It is very well made and there is no play. The vertical adjustment fits tight inside a groove in the horizontal

The bubble on mine was dead on as checked by a larger level

 

[Jordan Smith]

You guys need to try this:

Reticle Tru

Parabola LLC » PRODUCT INFO

I have one, and it works incredibly well. It's a very simple concept with no need for levels, plumb bobs, or anything else external to the scope and rifle.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

You guys need to try this:

Reticle Tru

Parabola LLC » PRODUCT INFO

I have one, and it works incredibly well. It's a very simple concept with no need for levels, plumb bobs, or anything else external to the scope and rifle.

Yep...that works too...I made a similar doodad in shop class when I was a freshman in high school...thats how I was able to "eyeball" all my rifles and still have them so close.

 

[dbhostler]

@ WOODS,

Guess I should have been more clear, my question is, when you set the EXD on the barrell and the bell of the scope, can you introduce any side to side play that would introduce error in the level of the rifle?
db

 

[dbhostler]

We're not talking about misalignments and what they could all add up to. We're talking about a standard that is -leveling of the sight.
I set my Tubb T2k up with a 7deg cant, with the elevation leveled, and the gun shot fine this way per design. You could use an offset base to shoot a righthand gun left-eyed, while the crosshair or adjustment is plumb. The effective scope height, at level, would need to be accounted for here, but level it still is, and that's what we're talking about.
Plumb sighting that results in plumb aim.

I don't care if the bases are plumb with the action, rings, or stock, because I don't aim with them.
And I don't need a plumb crosshair with my dot scopes.
Would I like for all to line up square? Yes, because it affects my zero,, not my level.

Maybe we're just missing each others context.
I would like to have a more precise field leveling device, that is tough enough and practical. It would likely be a pendulum, which I'd have to R&D.
But so far ScopLevel, setup my way, works, as I have tested to discover that I can't shoot among hills without it.

What I thought we've been talking about is how to make the verticle line of the crosshair perpendicular to the bore of the rifle. But you are correct about the crosshair being level on target. Many use some sort of a buble level on the sight or base to make sure you are level on target. I remember at least one manufacture placed a level within the scope itself for this purpose. I found this kinda of distracting, but I didn't use it enough to become acustom to it. You are also correct about missing something. I'm at the age that I'm usually missing something every day, but this has been a good discussion.
db