Cleaning brass

I rarely clean the outside of my cases except to use some 0000 wool on the case neck. If I decide to clean cases, I use an STM tumbler with the traditional Dawn & Lem Shine.

However, I only tumble them for 15-20min. The cases get clean, and the carbon remains in the necks. Having really shiny brass requires extended time in the tumbler. Too much time in the tumbler dings up the case mouths and removes the carbon from the inside of the necks.

One day I'll get around to trying the Orkan rice idea. It would save from having to dry cases after cleaning.
 
What's your experience with wet tumbling with SS pins? What problems did you have?
I have not used them ever. I have seen the results and for me they are too clean inside the necks. The finish on the outside is not to my liking either.
 
If additional seating force is the only "negative" to leaning carbon out of the necks there are multiple ways to overcome this.

In my relatively small sampling size (as compared to some here) going up .001" on my mandrel makes a noticeable difference in seating pressure. I also use Neolube as an inside neck lubricant and see consistent seating force (via arbor press and force pack). I even use it when firing new, virgin brass.

I've also seen varying opinions on neck interference (some call it neck tension). Some well known shooters run light interference, say .001, some say they run .004-.005 with great results. I personally fall somewhere in the low-middle of those ranges and have consistent results.

Since we can't see what ACTUALLY happens inside the chamber when firing a cartridge, I'm not sure we truly know whether interference matters or not. In my mind if everything expands during the firing process, including the neck, I don't know how much it truly affects accuracy/precision/velocity, etc. If it's not dragging out of the case neck due to expansion why would it even matter?

When I do want clean brass I wet tumble. Sometimes with and sometimes without pins. the only difference I've seen with and without pins is it takes longer without. The brass still gets clean, including primer pockets.
The biggest PITA for me when wet cleaning is the pins getting stacked up inside the cases. And drying just adds to the length of the process.
 
Since we can't see what ACTUALLY happens inside the chamber when firing a cartridge, I'm not sure we truly know whether interference matters or not. In my mind if everything expands during the firing process, including the neck, I don't know how much it truly affects accuracy/precision/velocity, etc. If it's not dragging out of the case neck due to expansion why would it even matter?

There is no question on whether it matters or not. It does. Perhaps these three videos would be of interest to you:







The feedback I've received on this series has been nothing short of staggeringly good, and consistently positive.

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So the desire is to have clean brass, even if it degrades accuracy and precision?
Well remember I'm not telling people what to do or not do. I'm just stating that each method has its pros and cons.

When you post instructing others to do do a method that's been working well for others for years, you might see some differing opinions posted.

So can you show some literature or proof that wet tumbling with SS pins degrades accuracy and precision? I'm not trash talking, I'm genuinely interested if people have done controlled studies/experiments that have consistently showed better and worse cleaning techniques. There's a lot of opinions, haven't seen solid evidence though.

Here's where wet tumbling shines for me. I hate my presses and floors getting dirty. When I started reloading years ago, it was in a room with carpet. I would put down a towel or garbage bag under the press and after a while carbon and dirt would be visible on the towel or trash bag, and carbon would collect around the shell holder. This was after vibratory tumbling with crushed walnut media. This is a bigger deal when cranking out ammo on one of my Dillon progressives vs one of my single stage presses.

I'm picking up pistol cases off the ground at my range and some of it had been on the ground for a while so it can be pretty dirty. So I run all this dirty brass through a universal decapper/deprimer off my normal reloading bench. It's dirty and can be a bit time consuming but usually it's done by my teenage sons to earn some trigger time at the range and hunting.

The dedicated depriming press gets filthy as you can imagine. Once deprimed, the brass in cleaned with wet tumbling and SS pins. It comes out perfectly clean so my presses on my reloading bench stay perfectly clean. Especially important to me on my progressive presses with the rotating shell plate, more moving parts.

Now I've found a few real downsides to wet tumbling with SS pins that I've had to overcome.

First, the brass comes out so clean that resizing straight walled pistol cases with a carbide die (usually a process done without lube) becomes a bit more of an issue. The very clean brass has more resistance to sizing. This can also cause a problem with seating bullets in very clean case mouths/necks.

Second, the brass will tarnish over time if that bothers someone.

The solution for both of these is after I tumble with Dawn detergent, I rinse and do a short tumble with Armor All Wash and Wax. After rinsing and drying, the brass has a slight almost imperceptible wax coating on it inside and out. This allows easy resizing of straight walled pistol cases in carbide dies on a progressive press and solves any issues of seating pistol bullets in straight walled pistol cases.

For rifle brass, I do the AA W&W treatment, then after lubing and resizing the body/pumbling shoulder/resizing the neck, I then use Redding dry neck lube with a Redding inside neck sizing mandrel. This imparts enough lubricity for consistent bullet seating in rifle cases, for me anyway.

Another downside is that the case mouth can theoretically get a bit dinged up by the pins and other cases. I just run a light inside chamfer on all my rifle cases before seating bullets.

The other day I needed some additional rounds loading up for a hunt and used dirty brass out of a bolt action rifle. Didn't do any cleaning whatsoever because brass shot at the bench out of a bolt action rifle doesn't get that dirty.

I shoot suppressed rifles almost exclusively for hunting and my 6.5 Grendel and .20 Practical cases come out of the rifle nearly black when shooting suppressed out of ARs. Even with adjustable gas blocks tuned correctly, the brass just comes out dirty compared to unsuppressed shooting.

So being able to get this brass perfectly clean makes things so much better for me when I'm working at the reloading bench.

Sorry the novel, but just wanted to share what works well for me and why I choose to wet tumble even though I recognize that there are pros and cons, just as there are pros and cons to every cleaning (or not cleaning) method.
 
So can you show some literature or proof that wet tumbling with SS pins degrades accuracy and precision? I'm not trash talking, I'm genuinely interested if people have done controlled studies/experiments that have consistently showed better and worse cleaning techniques. There's a lot of opinions, haven't seen solid evidence though.

I've been providing the evidence for years on my youtube channel. If you'd like to see a white paper done in the format of Aberdeen Proving grounds before you're willing to accept information... I think you'll be waiting a long time.

Consider this singular screenshot from one of my videos.
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That red line all by itself, is a new clean case. Cases tumbled in stainless are actually worse.

The ones down below, have been through my process. If I were to seat 100 cases at 190lb average force, the variance on those cases will be FAR greater than 100 cases seated at 40lbs of force. Obviously you can toy with annealing settings to get the force down, even with stainless clean methods... but it won't reduce it a lot. The problem is the surface lubricity. The friction differential between the neck and the bullet is just too high.

Obviously, the performance down range suffers. Not just due to the seating force variation... but due to the inevitable bullet deformation that happens during seating. Not only do they get deformed more, they get deformed in a non-uniform fashion. So the BC variation and flight characteristic change that comes along with a different shaped bullet is obvious... but the variation in terminal performance as a result of a damaged jacket is less obvious. Worse still... just because you can't see the non-uniform deformation in the bullet caused by seating, doesn't mean it's not there internally.

Despite the very obvious mechanical truths of what is going on here... I still see 1/2 moa or slightly over capability from most stainless tumbled cases. Yet there hasn't been a single person that arrived here for training that didn't have their rifle/system perform better after we handloaded their own ammo using my process. It ALWAYS shoots better than the way they loaded it. Some guys showed up with sub-1/4MOA setups, and they didn't even know it. 😆


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On the subject of wet tumbling with pins - Listening to a podcast a while back where a smith said he saw where a guy dinged the rifling in his barrel pretty badly after failing to remove all the SS pins from inside a case before loading and firing it. Seems, if that happens, the SS pin goes down the barrel behind the bullet.
 
I've been providing the evidence for years on my youtube channel. If you'd like to see a white paper done in the format of Aberdeen Proving grounds before you're willing to accept information... I think you'll be waiting a long time...
Thanks for the reply.

We both agree that raw brass out out of a wet tumbler can have problems with lack of lubricity as I mentioned in my previous post.

But if this lack of lubricity can be overcome with the methods I discussed, then is it still a problem?
 
On the subject of wet tumbling with pins - Listening to a podcast a while back where a smith said he saw where a guy dinged the rifling in his barrel pretty badly after failing to remove all the SS pins from inside a case before loading and firing it. Seems, if that happens, the SS pin goes down the barrel behind the bullet.
Yeah that would be bad. Luckily I've never had a pin retained in a case.
 
On the subject of wet tumbling with pins - Listening to a podcast a while back where a smith said he saw where a guy dinged the rifling in his barrel pretty badly after failing to remove all the SS pins from inside a case before loading and firing it. Seems, if that happens, the SS pin goes down the barrel behind the bullet.

I'm not so sure that always happens. Here's why:

I recently started using Centry21 mandrels and use their recommended moly powder in ceramic balls to lube the inside of the necks. Apparently, a few of those little balls got stuck in the case before reloading. The case loaded and fired fine but as I removed the case from the chamber, a couple of the balls rolled out of the case and into my hand.

I was rather surprised that I didn't detect them while reloading and was even more surprised that they didn't get launched out of the barrel.
 
But if this lack of lubricity can be overcome with the methods I discussed, then is it still a problem?
Yes, because additional processes, especially human-interface 1-to-1 actions can not be done without the introduction of more variables.

There is no logical argument for creating more work, to achieve a lesser result, when other methods that do not have any of the drawbacks are present.

To date, no one, and I mean not one singular person with the equipment to accurately measure bullet seating force (amp press) has been able to achieve a better result than my prescribed method with imperial wax OD and ID and rice, has been able to produce. (when done as prescribed)

The results on target have also spoken for themselves. Especially when they've implemented the rest of my methodology throughout their ecosystem.

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The case loaded and fired fine but as I removed the case from the chamber, a couple of the balls rolled out of the case and into my hand.
I was thinking that too. Thought the SS pin would just stay in the case. But the pressure does start in the back of the case at the primer hole and that pressure does push powder forward toward the shoulders and neck. So the SS pin could go along for the ride, I guess. Could also just be forced against the case head or bounce off the shoulder or something and stay in the case.
 
I was thinking that too. Thought the SS pin would just stay in the case. But the pressure does start in the back of the case at the primer hole and that pressure does push powder forward toward the shoulders and neck. So the SS pin could go along for the ride, I guess. Could also just be forced against the case head or bounce off the shoulder or something and stay in the case.

If you shoot suppressed, they can, and do, damage baffles and end up inside the can.


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