CED Chrono, how accurate?

AJ Peacock

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All,

I was using my old shooting Chrony the other day and seemed to be getting too high velocities for the load I was using. A friend of mine had a CED Millennium Chrono and it gave readings more in line with what I would expect (mine said around 3100fps, his said around 3000fps).

Both were very consistent from a relative perspective, which is good, however getting the 'real' reading is somewhat important.

Has anyone compared the CED to an Oehler 35P?

Thanks,
AJ
 
i have a ced but have not cumpared it to the 35p. i remember reading on sc where catshooter had switched to the ced i'm sure he could help with this
 
Interesting question.

I have brought up the issue of chrono accuracy several times on various boards and got no interest - most people think they are dead on accurate, and never question them. If the drop of their bullets aren't what they are supposed to get, they blame the manufacturer's BC, the software, and the phase of the moon, but they NEVER question the chrono - which is the most likely source of error.

The problem with these chrono's (all of them) are several.

The first is that all of them use a 89 cent, 4 Mhz timing chip that comes from China, or the Philippines, Somalia, or Papua New Guinea. :(

There is no way reasonable to check them for accuracy. And they are not temperature compensated, so the warmer it is, the faster the chip runs, so the SLOWER the velocity the chrono reads, for a given fixed trap time.

But the second is more complicated, and is where most of the error comes from.

These chronos work by catching the shadow of the bullet as it passes over a light sensitive port. This light port "sees" an area that is a trangle about 12"x12"x12" above it (if the top light defuser is in place).

The light falls onto a photo cell, and as the bullet passes over, the change in current through the cell causes a detector circuit to trip, and start the clock timing circuit to start "marking". The next cell causes the clock to stop "marking", and you have a number of "ticks" that are 4/10,000,000 of a second long - then the widdle computer takes over and posts your speed. As slick as they sound, they are really simple circuits.

The change in current is not like an off/on like a switch, it is a gradual change, and when looked at with an oscilloscope, it looks like the bottom half of a sine wave... kinda... actually, the leading ramp (the nose of the bullet) is gradual, and the trailing ramp (the tail) is sharp(er).

Now, here's the bad part. The circuits detect the change in light with what is generically called a "delta detector" circuit, which means it only detects change, but not any other part of the change - so it will trigger on a sharp on/off, or a gentile slope change... and the part of that slope that it triggers on is NOT fixed, cuz the amount of light it is set for, is NOT fixed... it floats.

Here's some more bad part... the percentage of change (the amount that the current dips) changes depending on where in the triangle, the bullet goes through.

Here's MORE bad part. The shape of the leading edge of the slope of the current change, CHANGES SHAPE, depending on how thick a section of "light" the cell sees.

The section of light the cell sees just over the little window is only a few mm's thick, but the section of light seen by the cell near the top of the triangle, is ~1 inch thick.

So the higher in the triangle you shoot, the worse EVERYTHING is.

But (more bad part) the closer to the cell's window you shoot, the better chance you have of shooting the **** cell (been there, have the teeshirts IN SPADES).

OK... the last of the bad stuff (I promise ;) )

If the bullet is not exactly parallel to the bar, that is to say, if the bullet does not pass over both windows at the exactly the same hight, then the velocities will read slower than they should.

My first Oehler (#33) came with a real technical book explaining most of this stuff, but it was so complicated that they had a full time person on the phone answering questions. They finely realized that the more you told the customer, the worse it got... and 99.9% of the customers just wanted to know "How fast is my bullet going?", and more importantly, WHICH LOAD IS GOING FASTER!!!

They didn't want to hear about slopes and clock speeds.

So they simplified the #33 manual, and then further simplified the P-35 manual... and everybody was happy.

Some 10 years ago, it painfully came to my attention, that my #33, and my P-35 were not telling me the same things. So I set them up together, so the bullet ran through both of them, and they didn't tell me the same things :(

A few years ago, I spoke at great length with Oehler's head en-ga-neer about being able to calibrate a P-35 to "traceable standards" (you knerds out there know what that means)... I figured it should be a simple matter of adjusting the spacing of the cells to make up for any inaccuracy of the clock, once I could accurately know the errors.

After several days and many phone calls, they could NOT come up with a single way to check a chronograph for accuracy.

In fact, he said that mine was the first call to inquire about it (that's not a good sign for us shooters :( )

But here's the kinda good news.

Lookie - most of the time, shooters do want to know which is faster, and that's easy.

If you want more consistency, be careful where the bullet flies over the cell, the closer the better, but don't shoot the frame.

And a BIG source of error is the thickness of the light area the cell sees. Use the IR illuminator - the beam is thinner, so the ramp is sharper, and the triggering is more repeatable.

I like the CED a lot, and I plan to get another... and I still have the Oehler #33, and I will NEVER sell it.

I'm glad I sold the P-35... it was klugie!

I hope this helps - if you have more questions... just ask.

.
 
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From my experience w/tronics and stuff including building a chrono housed in an old military cartridge box in the electronics shop of the USS Enterprise back when oehler screens were the little paper thingers, I'd say you are spot on.

I liked the paper better and included a modification that kept it stretched pretty tight. What fun those days were.;)

However, I wuve my 2 bit chrony it keeps me in the ball park I just have to watch for clouds passing by.:rolleyes:

Good post.
 
From my experience w/tronics and stuff including building a chrono housed in an old military cartridge box in the electronics shop of the USS Enterprise back when oehler screens were the little paper thingers, I'd say you are spot on.

I liked the paper better and included a modification that kept it stretched pretty tight. What fun those days were.;)

However, I wuve my 2 bit chrony it keeps me in the ball park I just have to watch for clouds passing by.:rolleyes:

Good post.



Roy... my first chrono was a resister / capacitor circuit and used 35mm film with silver paint on it.

You put the film in alligator clips and shot through the film, breaking the circuit.

Then the R/C circuit would give you a voltage on a volt meter from the discharge time constant, and you would have a look up chart.

Sooooo crude by todays standards, but I was the hit of the range when I had it, and guys would wait for hours to shoot one through it. ;)
 
...

And a BIG source of error is the thickness of the light area the cell sees. Use the IR illuminator - the beam is thinner, so the ramp is sharper, and the triggering is more repeatable.
...

I hope this helps - if you have more questions... just ask.

.

Catshooter,

It does help a lot, thanks. You didn't mention anything about the distance between the sensors. It seems that the longer the distance, the less error there would be due to slight differences in the length (.01" is a greater % of 2' than of 8'). Also a longer bar would seem to be easier to align with the bullets flight.

Do you use the standard 2' bar on your CED, or did you get one of the longer bars? It seems that the longer bar with the IR would be the way to go??

Thanks for the info,

AJ
 
Catshooter,

It does help a lot, thanks. You didn't mention anything about the distance between the sensors. It seems that the longer the distance, the less error there would be due to slight differences in the length (.01" is a greater % of 2' than of 8'). Also a longer bar would seem to be easier to align with the bullets flight.

Do you use the standard 2' bar on your CED, or did you get one of the longer bars? It seems that the longer bar with the IR would be the way to go??

Thanks for the info,

AJ

Good morning AJ.

I didn't mention the separation thing because it's mentioned in all of the instruction books - Lake City uses 102 feet separation between the traps (cells), with a center distance of 73 feet (which is why civilian posting of velocities don't match military postings).

I use the 2 foot distance most of the time, but use the 4 feet separation when needed, and I have a 10 foot rail for the #33, but I have not used it in years.

The reason is this.

I find that I need averages and development patterns when developing loads, more than the exact figure.
If I get an average of 3643, and the "real" average is 3649, or even 3655, it doesn't effect anything I'm doing - ballistic drops are the same (+/- 0.147284937" at 1,000 yds ;) ).

When I first got the #33, I dragged out that 10 foot pole every time, and thought it made a difference... if I really needed to know the exact speed, it would make sense, but we (now) know that the chronographs are not that accurate to start with... so why do it.

I guess what I'm saying is this - it is the ES and SD that are important in load development, especially for the long range shooter. And with short rails, you will still get the relative SDs and ESs... the average velocity will give you more accuracy than you need to do drop calcs with ballistic software - and those 10 rails are a real pain in the ***. ;)

.
 
Catshooter, thanks for the info.

One more question, how far in front of your muzzle do you typically place your Chrono? I usually go 10' or so, depending on how busy the range is and what I'm shooting. If I understand your post correctly, Lake City would have the first trap at 22'?

Thanks,
AJ
 
Catshooter, thanks for the info.

One more question, how far in front of your muzzle do you typically place your Chrono? I usually go 10' or so, depending on how busy the range is and what I'm shooting. If I understand your post correctly, Lake City would have the first trap at 22'?

Thanks,
AJ


I have it around 5 or 6 feet, because that's they way the land is - further than that, and it falls down a slope.

Yes, the first treap for LC is at 22 feet.

The reason for this is that they test stuff up to 20mm, and need the protection of the distance.
 
catshooter would it be worth useing a level to set up the sensors then getting the gun level before shooting threw them

It's not so much being level... it's being parallel that counts.

Look across the top of the cells light a sight, and aiim for a point on the target... then mount the barrel 2-ish inches above the cells, and look down the bore and align it to the same spot. That's about a good as you are going to get it.

.
 
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