Can you satterlee/ladder test on virgin brass?

[Bigeclipse]

Hey all,

Curious if any of you have ran satterlee testing on Virgin brass and still had the results holdup after resizing? This is not a post to debate whether satterlee works (it has for me on numerous occasions) but I've always done it on full length sized brass after being shot in my chamber. If it didn't hold up...did it get you close and essentially you could run a mini satterlee around the original node you found on the virgin brass? For example a typical satterlee is 10 shots in .2 grain increments. So lets say You identify a possible node at 45 grains so you load up 3 and shoot in that node for to verify low SD and ES. If that confirms consistent then typically you are good. Now you shoot your resized brass and it no longer holds up. Maybe instead of doing a whole new workup, you simply load 5 in .2 grains around the 45 grain original and see where the node maybe shifted to?

 

[twister]

I think this would be half useless, since you will have to do it again on the formed/sized brass. you might get a load for new brass out of it that is all.

 

[Bigeclipse]

I think this would be half useless, since you will have to do it again on the formed/sized brass. you might get a load for new brass out of it that is all.

Yeah that's what I feared. I just hate shooting a 100 rounds just to get fire formed brass.

 

[Dmagna]

Depends on the chamber. I can do it my 6.5 creed because there isn't a bunch of movement in brass. But won't work on belted mags because they stretch a lot.

 

[BillLarson]

Depends on gun and brass.
National matches have been won with new brass...

 

[jasonco]

Short answer yes, especially when using quality bra$$ and a custom chamber.

 

[jimbires]

I do seating depth with virgin brass . I use the minimum powder charge and find a good seating . then I have fired brass to work powder charge .

 

[QuietTexan]

I find a load that works in new brass, run it until it falls apart (last time this was at 3 firings). Then do the work up again more seriously with stable brass. No wasted firings just to shoot the cases.

The first load can be something new or marginal, or use up components or something like that to where it'll be good and work, but I'm not bent out of shape if it's not perfect.

 

[MagnumManiac]

I do seating depth and powder/primer combo tests on new brass because the node on powder doesn't matter doing this
All I'm looking for is rough combo's that give uniform groups with no vertical or horizontal to work off once I have a batch of brass that is stable and consistently bumps .001" back after sizing.
There is rarely any valid data to be taken from new brass.
The reasons are this.
Brass, even from the same lot, will expand and contract at different rates. The necks may expand and grow longer on one side more than the other, the case body and shoulder may also do the same, because cases are drawn into shape, this often causes one side to be thinner on the entirety of the case, this causes uneven expansion and, the only way to keep this from continuing is to fire form it in a way that the chamber is the governing factor on case movement and not the brass.
By firing it 3 times and only neck sizing for those 3 firings, all the uneven case expansion should have stopped and the brass is now stable.
One way to know if the brass is stable is to monitor how much uneven neck growth occurs upon sizing the necks. The first sizing can see an uneven neck growth of .010" or more on one side of the necks. When this stops, brass growth has also slowed and the internal shape of the brass is becoming uniform and stable.
Brass growth doesn't just flow forward, as many say, it goes in all directions moving to fill voids, which is why head separation can occur even when headspace is correct.

Cheers.

 

[BrentM]

Yes. I've done it multiple times.

 

[parshal]

If your shoulders don't move much on once-fired I work up a load on virgin and run with it. You really need to know how tight your chamber is.

 

[Flintlock shooter]

Absolutely!! And you're wasting components if you don't. After all are fire-formed you will find your node with just a few more 10th's of powder. Depending on cartridge, it's usually between .2gr and .5gr higher. I've never been afraid to shoot a match with a fire-forming load.

 

[TRG65]

My experience is it depends on the cartridge. For my AI wildcat that needs fire formed. I can get close, but it will need adjusted based on formed cartridges. If I'm shooting a non-wildcat, I start right into load development. Usually, I can find a velocity node, that is wide enough to be ok with a small volume difference.

 

[skipglo]

Yeah that's what I feared. I just hate shooting a 100 rounds just to get fire formed brass.

Then Just shoot 20 at time!