Can someone please explain

[QuietTexan]

I mean, if you ignore any nuance at all and just lay out generalized statements as facts, sure. Everything you gloss over as "if the system is accurate" is the majority of progress made in the sport in the last 20 years, you're making a reductive argument to essentially ignore half the equation if the other half is some level of quality that you leave undefined.

Advances in scopes, in barrels, in cartridge design and internal ballistics, in powders, in bullet designs, yes all of those combine to challenge loading processes that have been the norm for decades. It doesn't mean anything is, as you say, a waste of time or not super important, it means something else has become the limiting factor for accuracy.

If someone wants to jump in and just flat ignore everything you mentioned they're going to never get to the place where those variables are controlled for and don't make a negative impact on their shooting. I mean, why not shoot random range pick up brass and load it on a progressive if none of those things matter at all? Because they all DO matter, but it's much, much easier to control for them now because of advances on the other side of the balance sheet in hardware.

It's not surprising that neck fit doesn't only work in a very small range, powder nodes have been proven time and time again to be simple to set to be resilient against small variations. Doesn't mean top end shooters are loading with a Lee AutoDisc. Explain why several top shooters load with a Prometheus if powder charges are "not as important as you think"?

The answer is you're ignoring the distinction between accuracy and precision. You're arguing against precision in loading because accuracy has been improved with hardware.

 

[cornshank]

2007 post , but worth discussion, due to always handloaders always looking for info .
I like the OP because it gives a different look at how different people do things .
My advice is ,take a red sharpie , and color one of your buddies completed rounds , and put it on your reloading bench for a pattern .
And of course same powder amount, primer ,etc.

 

[waveslayer]

I mean, if you ignore any nuance at all and just lay out generalized statements as facts, sure. Everything you gloss over as "if the system is accurate" is the majority of progress made in the sport in the last 20 years, you're making a reductive argument to essentially ignore half the equation if the other half is some level of quality that you leave undefined.

Advances in scopes, in barrels, in cartridge design and internal ballistics, in powders, in bullet designs, yes all of those combine to challenge loading processes that have been the norm for decades. It doesn't mean anything is, as you say, a waste of time or not super important, it means something else has become the limiting factor for accuracy.

If someone wants to jump in and just flat ignore everything you mentioned they're going to never get to the place where those variables are controlled for and don't make a negative impact on their shooting. I mean, why not shoot random range pick up brass and load it on a progressive if none of those things matter at all? Because they all DO matter, but it's much, much easier to control for them now because of advances on the other side of the balance sheet in hardware.

It's not surprising that neck fit doesn't only work in a very small range, powder nodes have been proven time and time again to be simple to set to be resilient against small variations. Doesn't mean top end shooters are loading with a Lee AutoDisc. Explain why several top shooters load with a Prometheus if powder charges are "not as important as you think"?

The answer is you're ignoring the distinction between accuracy and precision. You're arguing against precision in loading because accuracy has been improved with hardware.

Without going into crazy in depth details. I'm not saying that it's all BS. All I said was with the new testing and ability to test certain parameters what we used to think isn't as important as we once thought it was. So get angry and argue, all fine with me. All I am saying is , as the original post from 15 years ago proved , that a system is only as accurate as that system is capable of.

Use the FGMM ammo. Shoots well in almost every gun out there.... why is that? It doesn't match barrel Harmonics because it's a fixed powder charge. But that fixed powder charge works fine in 16" all the way up to 30+" ? Yes it does... but why is that? If we have to find a node with certain charge weights it should be different in the FGMM ammo or even blackhills etc.

See what I'm saying?. The FGMM even has a fixed OAL... but we chase lands etc... why is the 2.805" the go to? But we do crazy seating depths. Don't get angry, take a birds eye view... can you shrink groups yes, we aren't shooting F class or Benchrest are we? This is a Long Range Hunting Forum. Even the PRS group says pick velocity and seating depth, ignore the rest. So again if the standard FGMM in .308 is good at 2.800-2.805" then again why is chasing the lands the end all be all?

AGAIN, I'm not saying it's all BS, I'm just offering a different look so we don't chase our tails when some things just don't make sense... example. New CA in 300PRC. With factory "precision" ammo , not my rifle by the way, I couldn't get it to group under an inch. No matter what I did. Switched it to reloads, same results nothing under an inch. Did load work up. OCW etc nada. I'd use all the same ammo in my DT (desert tech) and it was .50" groups, I'm talking 5 shots plus. Now after wasting all these resources. I said screw this, we changed the barrel. All of a sudden.... drum roll... same factory ammo and reloads that we tested prior the rifle was a .50-.75" moa rifle! Now... what is that saying. Read my original post. Bad is bad, good is good no matter what you feed it. Now don't get all extreme and spread the hate. Here's Real Life Data! Proof is in the target. SD's were 45 fps from the factory precision crap.. it still grouped half MOA.

I'll end there, just some things to think about

 

[OldElkHunter1961]

Even a blind hog occassionally finds an acorn. Some things in life are inexplicable. Sometimes in our favor. Some times not in our favor.

 

[TXTrained]

I need help analyzing this. My friend just blown my methods of meticulous handloading out of the water. Anyway, a few months ago, we decided to try the Nosler 168 Competition on both of our 308, and see if we can use the bullet for hunting. Well to make a story short, my rifle likes the Nosler and not on his. He handed me the rest of his already handloaded ammo, around 100 rounds in all, and give up on Nosler all together. I tried several of his reloaded rounds in my rifle and it chambered okay, even though he was using brass that was once once fired from his rifle. Except with occassional trimming, which is as far as his case preparation goes, he rarely does anything else on his brass. The other day, I tried his handloads on my rifle and the result was short of amazing.

Here's the spec of his handloaded 308 ammo

168 grain Nosler comp
43 grains of H4895
Federal 210 Match Primer
Winchester Brass/once fired and partially necksized/trimmed with no other case prep
COL 2.825 AV. jammbed slightly to the land

Here's the the Chronograph reading

High: 2749.1 fps
Low: 2745.4 fps

SD: 1.4
CV: 0.05%

MAD: 1.1
CV: 0.04%

AV: 2747.3 fps
ES: 3.7

#001: 2747.3 fps
#002: 2749.1 fps
#003: 2745.4 fps
#004: 2746.3 fps
#005: 2746.2 fps

Group: Not shooting for groups but Cloverleaf around half inch.

Now, What happened here?

Not sure except you accidentally found what Your rifle loves.Big question is .. Did you keep any of those Magic bulkets to make surebyou can Repeat it.???

 

[TXTrained]

Without going into crazy in depth details. I'm not saying that it's all BS. All I said was with the new testing and ability to test certain parameters what we used to think isn't as important as we once thought it was. So get angry and argue, all fine with me. All I am saying is , as the original post from 15 years ago proved , that a system is only as accurate as that system is capable of.

Use the FGMM ammo. Shoots well in almost every gun out there.... why is that? It doesn't match barrel Harmonics because it's a fixed powder charge. But that fixed powder charge works fine in 16" all the way up to 30+" ? Yes it does... but why is that? If we have to find a node with certain charge weights it should be different in the FGMM ammo or even blackhills etc.

See what I'm saying?. The FGMM even has a fixed OAL... but we chase lands etc... why is the 2.805" the go to? But we do crazy seating depths. Don't get angry, take a birds eye view... can you shrink groups yes, we aren't shooting F class or Benchrest are we? This is a Long Range Hunting Forum. Even the PRS group says pick velocity and seating depth, ignore the rest. So again if the standard FGMM in .308 is good at 2.800-2.805" then again why is chasing the lands the end all be all?

AGAIN, I'm not saying it's all BS, I'm just offering a different look so we don't chase our tails when some things just don't make sense... example. New CA in 300PRC. With factory "precision" ammo , not my rifle by the way, I couldn't get it to group under an inch. No matter what I did. Switched it to reloads, same results nothing under an inch. Did load work up. OCW etc nada. I'd use all the same ammo in my DT (desert tech) and it was .50" groups, I'm talking 5 shots plus. Now after wasting all these resources. I said screw this, we changed the barrel. All of a sudden.... drum roll... same factory ammo and reloads that we tested prior the rifle was a .50-.75" moa rifle! Now... what is that saying. Read my original post. Bad is bad, good is good no matter what you feed it. Now don't get all extreme and spread the hate. Here's Real Life Data! Proof is in the target. SD's were 45 fps from the factory precision crap.. it still grouped half MOA.

I'll end there, just some things to think about

I agree.Chasing the lands in reloading is crazy. Why? Youre chasing a Moving target.That measurement is never the same .

 

[WildRose]

I need help analyzing this. My friend just blown my methods of meticulous handloading out of the water. Anyway, a few months ago, we decided to try the Nosler 168 Competition on both of our 308, and see if we can use the bullet for hunting. Well to make a story short, my rifle likes the Nosler and not on his. He handed me the rest of his already handloaded ammo, around 100 rounds in all, and give up on Nosler all together. I tried several of his reloaded rounds in my rifle and it chambered okay, even though he was using brass that was once once fired from his rifle. Except with occassional trimming, which is as far as his case preparation goes, he rarely does anything else on his brass. The other day, I tried his handloads on my rifle and the result was short of amazing.

Here's the spec of his handloaded 308 ammo

168 grain Nosler comp
43 grains of H4895
Federal 210 Match Primer
Winchester Brass/once fired and partially necksized/trimmed with no other case prep
COL 2.825 AV. jammbed slightly to the land

Here's the the Chronograph reading

High: 2749.1 fps
Low: 2745.4 fps

SD: 1.4
CV: 0.05%

MAD: 1.1
CV: 0.04%

AV: 2747.3 fps
ES: 3.7

#001: 2747.3 fps
#002: 2749.1 fps
#003: 2745.4 fps
#004: 2746.3 fps
#005: 2746.2 fps

Group: Not shooting for groups but Cloverleaf around half inch.

Now, What happened here?

You stumbled on to what may well be a perfect load for your rifle.

Now just see if you can repeat it!

 

[cornshank]

Even a blind hog occassionally finds an acorn. Some things in life are inexplicable. Sometimes in our favor. Some times not in our favor.

Take the acorn , color it with sharpie and put on reloading bench for future pattern.

 

[Ol' Red]

have you bathed since then ?

I thought I had a 15 yearlong nap. It was my first cup of coffee this morning and I had slept in until 6:00. Had me a little spooked.

 

[Reelamin]

I call it facts v internet fiction. Happens all time. The internet has been the best for selling products not at all really needed. I barely and minimally do much detail and all of the "required" garbage the internet claims. I would rather spend my time and money shooting rounds instead of splitting tiny curly hairs.