Bullet selection. (ELDX/Accubond/Barnes/Hammer/)

[dhbikerczar]

I'm running a 300 IFR (Norma Mag Improved). In that rifle I have only run Hammer Hunters. I started with the 215gr but I couldn't get them to group to my expectations. My barrel matched the twist rate spec of the 215's (actually, could be 212, I've forgotten as it's been several years) I then tried the 180 Hammer Hunters. They are running very fast, 3450 fps. I have taken two elk with them. 226 yards and 357 yards. Both elk were chest shots through the lungs. Both elk took a few steps and fell over dead (maybe 5 yards?). My hunting history is about 35 years long. I shot 180 gr Nosler Partitions in my 30-06 at 2950 fps. It was an amazing rifle and an amazing bullet. I took it to Africa where I've gotten 11 animals with it, then deer and elk here in America. About 10 years ago I stepped into the modern world and had LPR build a 6.5 SAUM. In that i tried almost 10 different bullets. The 143 ELD-X was the only one that reminded me of the terminal performance of the Partition. With that i think the 180 HH has shown more bloodshot at the entry point (no surprise at this speeds) but not horrible. The rest of the bullets performance is great and looks just like the old partitions. I have put a new barrel on my 06. A 1:10 twist. I've been trying cutting edge bullets but so far none of them have grouped worth beans. I'll try the next lighter ones this spring, i think 165 ish. I have not taken an animal with the CE's so I cannot comment on their terminal performance. With how good the HH have been, I'm migrating my hunting rifles to all cooper bullets as I replace barrels. I'm trying to work the CE up on the 06 as they are local (Boise) and I've heard they are good on game as well. When I talk about accuracy my 6.5 is in the 1/4 moa range, the 300 IFR is in the 1/4 to 1/2 MOA. The old 06 was 3/4 MOA load with the 180 partition. I haven't reached solid sub 1 moa with CE yet. I 100% recommend the Hammer Hunters for hunting!

 

[Michael Lares]

Maybe just a tad off topic we're getting. So just to go over my original question, if I were to try a cutting edge, hammer, Barnes, etc., what weight would I go with in the 300 PRC and 300 ultra? I'm also a little lost on bullet selection. As far as which Barnes …. The TTSX, the LRX, which hammer or cutting edge, Hornady CX, etc to try? Do I want to go down in weight to increase velocity to get them to open?
I would say the majority of the moose were shot under 400 yards. But I also need something that will work if need be up close at say 50 yards, and or out to 700 yards.

What twist are you running? Get on Hammer website and look what the bullets require. Typically the larger higher bc bullets need more twist as usual.

 

[fordy]

Gday @shooters
Derail alert
oh I wish I could post videos but reality is I'm not smart enough for that so back to reality

I can't empathise enough about using a midweight pill again especially in the hammers that 154hht is a very good pill in the rum & I personally run this & recommend it to a lot of people & it will work well for you also the 182 hht is a pill that I held a lot of hope for until testing commenced & my mate actually found the bad issues this pill has first off as we set it up for him on recommendations of others & my theory of it should be very good & i confirmed in subsequent testing as it's erratic or bingo raffle as I call it yet killed it did just took a longtime to die & nearly lost this deer in a river he did



the bigger monos have yet to show they can be more effective on the tests I've carried out & those on different mono companies total over 20 & critter numbers that I'll not put up as that has proven to end in a crap show & I'll not enter that side again so let's just say it's a lot a real lot
The midweight pills in the shedding were the most consistent on asiatic buff where the heavy mushroom monos preformed better on the asiatic so your moose are a walk in the park imo

I was regarded once as hammers main tester ( until very recently not now as I rocked the boat of factual vrs marketing to much ) & test to a level that not many will test let alone shoot numbers too

This is not to gloat or say I'm a guru as I'm not but my factual information is sound ( well imo & many others while others think Its the opposite which is cool but factual evidence shouldn't be dismissed imo ) on the pills I've tested & not only monos as I got in a crap fight on a thread of " target bullets are not hunting bullets " or something like that
Where this same situation occurred with a role reversal of a too light of a eld being used & a more appropriate pill used for that gentleman's application in the future as he was so close to a failure yet the elk died quickly

It took a while to get the message across but eventually it was seen & today I have a tshirt from him that I wear with pride


Your thread is no different as I see a lot are recommending the bigger monos which if you want to go that way id revisit my recommendation in post number 12

I wish you the best & please keep us updated on your journey as what you find will help others & that to me is the important stuff & why I speak up

I wish you the best
Cheers

 

[Quintus]

Gday @shooters
Derail alert
oh I wish I could post videos but reality is I'm not smart enough for that so back to reality

I can't empathise enough about using a midweight pill again especially in the hammers that 154hht is a very good pill in the rum & I personally run this & recommend it to a lot of people & it will work well for you also the 182 hht is a pill that I held a lot of hope for until testing commenced & my mate actually found the bad issues this pill has first off as we set it up for him on recommendations of others & my theory of it should be very good & i confirmed in subsequent testing as it's erratic or bingo raffle as I call it yet killed it did just took a longtime to die & nearly lost this deer in a river he did
View attachment 630944
View attachment 630945

the bigger monos have yet to show they can be more effective on the tests I've carried out & those on different mono companies total over 20 & critter numbers that I'll not put up as that has proven to end in a crap show & I'll not enter that side again so let's just say it's a lot a real lot
The midweight pills in the shedding were the most consistent on asiatic buff where the heavy mushroom monos preformed better on the asiatic so your moose are a walk in the park imo

I was regarded once as hammers main tester ( until very recently not now as I rocked the boat of factual vrs marketing to much ) & test to a level that not many will test let alone shoot numbers too

This is not to gloat or say I'm a guru as I'm not but my factual information is sound ( well imo & many others while others think Its the opposite which is cool but factual evidence shouldn't be dismissed imo ) on the pills I've tested & not only monos as I got in a crap fight on a thread of " target bullets are not hunting bullets " or something like that
Where this same situation occurred with a role reversal of a too light of a eld being used & a more appropriate pill used for that gentleman's application in the future as he was so close to a failure yet the elk died quickly

It took a while to get the message across but eventually it was seen & today I have a tshirt from him that I wear with pride
View attachment 630942

Your thread is no different as I see a lot are recommending the bigger monos which if you want to go that way id revisit my recommendation in post number 12

I wish you the best & please keep us updated on your journey as what you find will help others & that to me is the important stuff & why I speak up

I wish you the best
Cheers

That is a fascinating wound channel! The only heavy for Cal. Hammer I have used was the 169 HH in 284 from an 8 twist and it penetrated like depleted uranium. Thanks for posting!

 

[shooters]

Spoke with Hammer.
I mentioned the 300 PRC and the 300 RUM.
With the shorter 22" barrels, he recommended the 182 HHT in the PRC and the 203 HHT and OR possibly just running the 182 HHT in both calibers.
It even crossed his mind to run the 168 HHT in the PRC. Definitely seems light, but sounds like the lighter in the copper world may have the advantage.

Not sure what to do other than to start with the 182 HHT's and go from there.

 

[FireFlyFishing]

I will caution you that 5-600 yd + shots are asking a lot out of a mono metal - just as sub 100 yds on the shoulder out of a magnum is asking a lot of cup and core bullets on a heavy boned animal such as a moose. Out of my 24" barrel, I am over 2000 fps out to 650 yds, though Barnes claims the LRX will expand down to 1600 fps.

Agree

In your 30 caliber rifles I would be looking at projectile weight options in the 180-200 gr give or take. I'm currently subscribing to the theory that copper does best with higher velocities and speed make bullets work. However, the above mentioned bullets designs are very efficient now so not necessarily the case "every time".

Agree

Velocity coupled with a well placed shot is your friend. That's really all you need to consider with monos. And…if it doesn't go down, keep shooting it until it does.

 

[fordy]

Gday quintus

That is a fascinating wound channel! The only heavy for Cal. Hammer I have used was the 169 HH in 284 from an 8 twist and it penetrated like depleted uranium. Thanks for posting!

Yes it was replicated a couple times
That particular deer the pill done a big boomerang & made it through the diaphragm clipping gut & back to where it nearly started

Yes fascinating for sure & a balance issue imo but I didn't tinker with it as I can't add only take away so I'm not sure on what needs to be done to fix it only theory

That leads me into your pill

A couple things going for it
First is twist rates or more importantly stability
& noticed a lot of companies now are using the same process of a minimum twist & preferred twist which is great Imo as gives us as hunters some insight into why stability is important if we delve a little deeper

The next part of that particular pill is the 70% retention weight move that to the 60% & watch out in this pills case ( some 60% retention weight is optimal on some pills yes a balanced pill is a must to get optimal results)
That tells me a lot as every other pill I tested you can see where a too deep of hp retarding the shank speed & for broad words then gives Barnes like kills
Yes you balance a pill correctly & watch killing efficiency kick in to a higher level

Now it's not just having a shallow hp as then you don't have enough petal mass plus some other things occurring to effectively create a good wound ( zones 2&3 really suffer ) & the shank to caliber ratio seems to get out of whack on the longer pills also then & tumbling in zone 4 is often observed & where the FOC of a mushroom mono has shown it's superiority on a consistent basis

Hope that makes sense & one the more information on a companies page on pill description the better we can make our decision imo or complicated also for some Yep totally get that also but just like you have on going with that 8 twist of yours move to a 7or 7.5 & watch it most likely kick into another gear but to fast has shown levels also of different things occurring but another day for that I suspect as I've derailed enough
It's a pattern exactly the same on the 30 cal 181hh which I have history with but not your 169hh so that's theory based for me on that pill so take that for what it's worth

Cheers

 

[snox801]

I can only comment to what I've done and seen. Just last year my bother in law made like a 40 yard shot on a mule deer with a .308. Zipped right through like a full metal. It gimped away into the thickets. Didn't find it for like 3 days. Good clean shot behind the shoulder and poked out the front of the adjacent shoulder.

There's been other times.


As far as cup and core, depends what we are talking about. Things like the ELD just kind of blow up in the animal. Same with the old AMAX. Accubonds have had some issues and inconsistency's upclose. Partitions kind of explode too if you get into the shoulder bone.

Well a sample size of one is not a good measure. As someone who kills around 100 big game a year. I can same they have been the most consistent and reliable for both close and longer shots. One or two like your stated pencil though could be self inflicted. Was the tip bent damaged?

Can't blame that on a bullet. If you can gonna have to toss out every open tip made. Shoot enough of anything and it will fail. Was it the bullet or something you missed. Not stable enough? Bent over hollow point? That's why you have to use a larger body of work.
I also used to use a lot of hornady and some Berger. But over time and animals see what bullet was least prone to failure or inconsistency.

 

[snox801]

, despite some of the claims, there is no magic bullet.

This is simpley wrong.
ANY bullet out of a 6.5 creedmore is a magical bullet.

 

[KH_Outdoors]

Adding onto my earlier post & suggestions. It sound's like Mr. @fordy has alot of experience with the HHT's and if the 150 gr class is outperforming the 180's terminally I'd probably take his word for it.

Also, if you're going to consider 150/160 class I'd throw in the 30 cal "168 Long" model from Mcguire's. One od their most devastating models if that's what you're after.

 

[JAYgs8163]

Adding onto my earlier post & suggestions. It sound's like Mr. @fordy has alot of experience with the HHT's and if the 150 gr class is outperforming the 180's terminally I'd probably take his word for it.

Also, if you're going to consider 150/160 class I'd throw in the 30 cal "168 Long" model from Mcguire's. One od their most devastating models if that's what you're after.

I'm possibly planning on that bullet (168 long) as well for my 300PRC. I may try it in my 300WSM first but not sure it's ideal OAL would work.

 

[KH_Outdoors]

I'm possibly planning on that bullet (168 long) as well for my 300PRC. I may try it in my 300WSM first but not sure it's ideal OAL would work.

I think it will work great for both the prc & wsm. The 168 Long was designed to optimize the 300 wsm & has a comparable bearing surface to a 215 Berger.

 

[fordy]

I can only comment to what I've done and seen. Just last year my bother in law made like a 40 yard shot on a mule deer with a .308. Zipped right through like a full metal. It gimped away into the thickets. Didn't find it for like 3 days. Good clean shot behind the shoulder and poked out the front of the adjacent shoulder.

There's been other times.


As far as cup and core, depends what we are talking about. Things like the ELD just kind of blow up in the animal. Same with the old AMAX. Accubonds have had some issues and inconsistency's upclose. Partitions kind of explode too if you get into the shoulder bone.

Gday dfanonymous
On your first bit I got a fair amount of backlash on hammertime for this type of thing occurring now it's only a low % base but one I've been watching the % increase in other's results & my own results & until one looks into hydraulic actuated vrs pneumatically actuated ( I've borrowed those words off another person as I wasn't that smart but looked it up & i like them comparisons)
Really people are going like you had oh it's only a sample of one ( sorry snox with respect but it's the same pattern I hear time after time & shoot enough & it's not a one off )

This is not only mono related as one of the worst pills I'd seen for non opening of a hp was the Sierra hpbt & moving it to a hydraulic system basically fixed it ( still issues with that pill just different ones ) but on the hammer hh line I found it lessened the risk of a pencil occurring ( & tips also have issues )
My impacts were plus 3k on hammers & yet once i applied hydraulic system i didn't fail that pill once again I'll keep numbers out but it's in 3 figures , total numbers of all pills in 4 figures

Now even recently I was forwarded a video on the new Barnes bore rider by vortex & they were shooting into gel & hey presto a pill that penciled multiple times
& fixed by hydraulic by them so a little more information filtering through hmmm

Now I'm upto the stage of trying to understand dry & wet impacts more as I stated on hammertime back in November which some got others not but it's usually when the majority work out what the minority is on about the minority have already moved on

I mean no disrespect towards anyone on that last statement but please clear one's head & not directed @ you dfanonymous it's directed @ people in general of accepting & not questioning

Sorry for derail @shooters in your thread & would be better discussed in a different one so I'll try to refrain from any more detail but hope you understand I try to lift the bar on terminal performance & one that I get a lot of pushback from people & some companies but I'll just showing factual information so hopefully we can lessen the risk of that low % bad result occurring again as I don't live in the world of when things go right it's when they go wrong I'm concerned with

I'll go back to my hole now
Cheers

 

[lancetkenyon]

Not necessarily…..my wife and I both use the same weight with a Barnes of the same weight as popular cup & core for our cartridges! memtb

But the OP says he is using 215-230s. A copper that weight (214gr HH) is going to be LOOOOONG. Requiring .308" twist rates in the 1:8.5" minimum where a 215 Hyb is a 1:10" twist. 194 Afterburner is 1:8" minimum.