Bullet Seating Problem

[MOA or bust]

Back at home. Remeasured everything, inspected and cleaned dies.
The issue is having a Hammer bullet "loose" in the case after loading for my 28 Nosler. Starting neck OD after sizing before loading is ~.310. Neck OD after loading a 170 HHT is ~.317. Even with that amount of neck tension, the bullet can be pulled back and forth a couple hundredths apparently between two of the last (deepest) bullet ridges. It's a long bullet and has to be seated deeply. The Hammer bullets don't have a fat shank, it measures .284 at each ridge. Berger 180 bullets seat and aren't "loose".

Looking at rounds I loaded a few months ago with same components, they are also .317 at the neck, but they're not loose.

Is it possible this brass has become too soft with annealing (AMP annealer) and gets excessively dilated with seating of the bullet?

Should I order a bushing die with .314 and .315 bushings and see if just a small step up from .314 to .317 neck OD with seating would avoid "stretching" the neck and keep elasticity?

Still don't understand what's going on.

 

[crashlanding]

Your numbers seem oddly off. .310 to start off with even using adg brass which I use in another 7prc is a bit tight on o.d. dimension but to have it expand to .318 after bullet seating then I would agree with WapitiBob that you may be annealing too much of the neck and making it supper soft or you are using too much heat . Do you have any brass that you haven't annealed? If so try loading it and see if you get a different result, if not, get some new brass and start over without torching it

 

[MOA or bust]

Thanks crashlanding for your recommendation. I may end up buying some new brass, but gonna see what a few others think first.

 

[Rick Richard]

Thanks crashlanding for your recommendation. I may end up buying some new brass, but gonna see what a few others think first.

I would shoot a couple or few and reload without annealing. If it loads and no slippage, then you may need to look at your annealing process.

 

[MOA or bust]

Thanks Rick, good idea. Will shoot some this weekend and see what happens.

 

[Koda_]

I had this problem with some Hammer Hunters a while back, the issue was I was using a spray case lube and never cleaned out the neck ID after sizing the cases. The Hammer drive bands contact the case neck much less than a jacketed bullet, so there is less tension despite the measured O.D. neck tension. After cleaning out the excess case lube from the neck ID it held fine, note I added a crimp but only because that caliber was for a gas gun. I don't believe you should need a crimp for a bolt gun.
The HHT Hammers have larger drive bands than the original HH's, you need at least two drive bands making full contact inside the neck ID. Depending on your seating depth and neck length, the lower drive band near the case shoulder could be on its edge. You want the top of the drive band radius fully engaged with the case neck length, not on the edge of the shoulder transition or case mouth.

Things to try:

• Seat a bullet with new virgin brass, if it holds its not the brass but something your doing.
• Clean the neck ID with ISO, I use a qtip. If it holds then its probably excess case lube or something.
• Double check your seating depth to assure at least two full drive bands are fully engaging the neck area. If your neck length is too short then maybe the original Hammer Hunter equivalent would be a better alternative. This is a potential issue with the HHTs larger drive band geometry if the neck length isnt long enough restricting playing with seating depths, it would be easy to seat the lower drive band on the edge of the shoulder junction.

 

[MOA or bust]

I will make sure the case neck ID's are clean when I try loading some more cases. I did use HBN treatment on the bullets (as usual) so the bullets are "slippery".

 

[Koda_]

I will make sure the case neck ID's are clean when I try loading some more cases. I did use HBN treatment on the bullets (as usual) so the bullets are "slippery".

Have you been able to use HBN successfully before on Hammer bullets? I imagine it works excellent on jacketed bullets, but I know first hand the neck tension on Hammers is reduced due to the drive bands, and the issue is even more pronounced with the newer HHT larger drive bands depending on the case neck length. Consider that those drive bands naturally reduce barrel friction by design, so its possible you don't need HBN treatment on Hammers and you might find this the solution.
I'm curious what you end up finding out, please let us know.

 

[MOA or bust]

So, I think I have identified the problem causing "loose" HHT bullets in loaded 28N cases, and Koda_ and Rick Richard were all over it. I was using HBN treated bullets and also annealing after every firing of the brass.

Bought some new HHT bullets and did not HBN treat them.
Resized some fired brass, but did not re-anneal (have an AMP annealer).
Tried loading non-HBN bullets in already annealed brass and 4/5 were "loose".
Loaded 5 non-HBN bullets in brass that was not re-annealed and they were "tight"!
Loaded one HBN bullet in the only other piece of brass that was not re-annealed and it was "tight"!!

So it appears the main issue was "over-annealing" my brass (after every firing).
Thanks to the guys above who were very helpful!
Now I'm kinda wierded out about how often to anneal my brass. Will the necks be too soft/loose the next time I do anneal? Is it really just these bullets that allowed this issue to show up?
Anyway I'm very happy to have an explanation and a remedy. Really love longrangehunting.com!

 

[Rick Richard]

So, I think I have identified the problem causing "loose" HHT bullets in loaded 28N cases, and Koda_ and Rick Richard were all over it. I was using HBN treated bullets and also annealing after every firing of the brass.

Bought some new HHT bullets and did not HBN treat them.
Resized some fired brass, but did not re-anneal (have an AMP annealer).
Tried loading non-HBN bullets in already annealed brass and 4/5 were "loose".
Loaded 5 non-HBN bullets in brass that was not re-annealed and they were "tight"!
Loaded one HBN bullet in the only other piece of brass that was not re-annealed and it was "tight"!!

So it appears the main issue was "over-annealing" my brass (after every firing).
Thanks to the guys above who were very helpful!
Now I'm kinda wierded out about how often to anneal my brass. Will the necks be too soft/loose the next time I do anneal? Is it really just these bullets that allowed this issue to show up?
Anyway I'm very happy to have an explanation and a remedy. Really love longrangehunting.com!

It appears a little testing will be required. Try annealing every other firing and etc. until you get acceptable results. However, the over annealing or too soft of brass using the AMP would concern me….something is not correct.

 

[Koda_]

Bought some new HHT bullets and did not HBN treat them.
Resized some fired brass, but did not re-anneal (have an AMP annealer).
Tried loading non-HBN bullets in already annealed brass and 4/5 were "loose".
Loaded 5 non-HBN bullets in brass that was not re-annealed and they were "tight"!
Loaded one HBN bullet in the only other piece of brass that was not re-annealed and it was "tight"!!

Interesting because Ive never had a loose bullet from annealing, and I anneal after every firing.
I dont know if one can over anneal? Eric Cortina did a good youtube video on this and iirc he couldnt. Ill have to rewatch that to confirm.
It could be your over annealing.... you should never have a problem holding tigh any bullet with annealed brass. Factory new comes annealed and they hold as is.

 

[MOA or bust]

It is conceivable that t used the wrong code when annealed some 28N brass last time but even that seems an unlikely cause.

When I do anneal for this rifle, gonna just do one piece of brass (not the whole batch of 100 ADG bullets), and try loading it first!

 

[manitou]

Not trying to insult you by any means, but you would be fine just annealing every third shot/use. I try not to over-anneal my brass or anneal too frequently... but I imagine many do it every firing.

I also know "someone" who had multiple dies out one time and used the wrong mandrell.

We all know consistency is the key with accurate ammo, but most go for 1-3 thousandths for neck tension.
I use two thousandths for my reloading.

I have also gone to body sizing, then using a neck collett/mandrel to size the INTERIOR of my case necks which seems to get me more consistent neck tension.

I don't doubt you will get it figured out. We all (reloaders) seem to get these anomolies at times. It is usally operator error in my case.

 

[Richard Kramer]

Seems you are annealing your cases too much and have now lost the 'elasticity' of the brass. I don't t anneal brass until after 4 or 5 firings even with cases like .300 RUM. Size and trim only. I'm afraid your brass is now junk from too much annealing.