build or buy

[Silly_Ghillie]

I know what I am about to say is anecdotal, and I have a horrible habit of listening to myself type on forums so forgive me. This goes back to the "build, or not to build" question.
I haven't been in the long range game too terribly long, not seriously anyway until about ten years ago. Mind you, I do much more target shooting than anything else, in the warm months I am out probably once to twice a week slinging lead into the expanse hitting mostly sagebrush. but don't let it subtract from my statement when I say building your own rifle is a million times better in the long run if you plan on using it frequently.

My first long range precision rifle was a savage 110 in .300 WM, nothing too fancy. Slapped me a SWFA fixed 16x and I was ready to hit the 1000 yard mark. There was a short honeymoon period of course, but then I started noticing all the things I didn't like about the rifle. The barrel was too short and narrow, the under belly of the receiver was already spotting with rust after a year, the included scope base of the rifle was garbage, the stock was cheaply bedded, etc. etc. The barrel had burnt out in around 900 shots of relatively mild hand loads. (bad metallurgy I'm guessing) It went from shooting sub 1/2 MOA to some 2ish MOA. It was just put together poorly. I loved the rifle, it shot as good as any with proper hand loading and good technique, but it was still pumped out of a factory somewhere with crude machines and underpaid employees slapping it together.

So I cleaned and cerakoted the receiver, got a Pac-nor barrel the way I wanted, bought a precision chassis, a better piece of glass, new base and rings, new trigger, had everything trued, and when all was said and done, I had spent upward of $6500 on the rifle, and to rebuild it my way. Had I just bought the components separate and built it myself the first time, the price would have been much lower. I learned this after experiencing this problem three more times. Now I have two semi-custom savages and a Winchester 70 build in the works.

Of course though, there is a ton of people putting together a fine product, Surgeon for example. Also those weird folks that need something rather proprietary for the job at hand have a good excuse to stick to commercial.

Sorry about my long winded example, but those are my two pennies on the subject.

 

[FIGJAM]

I know what I am about to say is anecdotal, and I have a horrible habit of listening to myself type on forums so forgive me. This goes back to the "build, or not to build" question.
I haven't been in the long range game too terribly long, not seriously anyway until about ten years ago. Mind you, I do much more target shooting than anything else, in the warm months I am out probably once to twice a week slinging lead into the expanse hitting mostly sagebrush. but don't let it subtract from my statement when I say building your own rifle is a million times better in the long run if you plan on using it frequently.

My first long range precision rifle was a savage 110 in .300 WM, nothing too fancy. Slapped me a SWFA fixed 16x and I was ready to hit the 1000 yard mark. There was a short honeymoon period of course, but then I started noticing all the things I didn't like about the rifle. The barrel was too short and narrow, the under belly of the receiver was already spotting with rust after a year, the included scope base of the rifle was garbage, the stock was cheaply bedded, etc. etc. The barrel had burnt out in around 900 shots of relatively mild hand loads. (bad metallurgy I'm guessing) It went from shooting sub 1/2 MOA to some 2ish MOA. It was just put together poorly. I loved the rifle, it shot as good as any with proper hand loading and good technique, but it was still pumped out of a factory somewhere with crude machines and underpaid employees slapping it together.

So I cleaned and cerakoted the receiver, got a Pac-nor barrel the way I wanted, bought a precision chassis, a better piece of glass, new base and rings, new trigger, had everything trued, and when all was said and done, I had spent upward of $6500 on the rifle, and to rebuild it my way. Had I just bought the components separate and built it myself the first time, the price would have been much lower. I learned this after experiencing this problem three more times. Now I have two semi-custom savages and a Winchester 70 build in the works.

Of course though, there is a ton of people putting together a fine product, Surgeon for example. Also those weird folks that need something rather proprietary for the job at hand have a good excuse to stick to commercial.

Sorry about my long winded example, but those are my two pennies on the subject.

I have to wonder if you would have gone out and bought a savage 110 stealth evolution for that first long range rifle, if you would have felt the same need to spend $6500 on a custom. Even in the last 2 years rifle manufacturers have have made significant improvements catering to the long range shooting crowd.

This is the problem, guys are using examples of rifles from 10, 20, 30 years ago instead of recognizing how far factory rifles have come. 1/4 or 1/2 moa gun is a 1/4 or 1/2 moa gun regardless of who made it or how much was spent.

If I can't get my rifles to shoot 1/2 moa they get kicked down the road. In the last 3 or 4 years I haven't had to kick a rifle down the road for accuracy issues. I several remington sendero sfIIs/VSSFII and a 5r Gen II that are all 1/2 moa or better - those all wear the factory HS Precision stocks and timney triggers. I am into those rifles with triggers for about $1250 each.

My xbolt is 1/2 moa with the factory hornady precision hunter ammo - I should be able to tighten that up with some handloads and the mcarbo spring kit I just bought.

My son's Savage 11 trophy hunter 6.5 that wears a boyds at one stock is a 1/2 moa gun with hornady match ammo. As is my daughters 243 in the same configuration.

It just isn't that hard or expensive to get shooters nowadays.

 

[gjk5]

You are absolutely correct, I would never have believed 10 or 20 years ago that the factory guns would should this well. It is amazing to me how far the industry has come in guns, glass and factory ammo.

 

[Deleted member 25294]

I will agree that it's encouraging to see factory rifles improving, I still feel that factory options are only 2/3 of the way there.

Browning finally stepped it up with fast twist options, but are still limited with saami throating and poor magazine length. What's the point of a 28 Nos with 180-195's stuffed half way down the case.

Also It's ridiculous that every manufacture is pretty much chambering the same handful of cartridges.

Remember accuracy is not the only consideration when choosing a rifle..
When a serious shooter wants to take advantage of modern cartridges using modern powders and bullets, there's just no replacement for at least a custom barrel.

I built a completely custom 5.8 lb Tikka chambered in 6.5 SAUM, with a carbon fiber stock, for about $200 more than a semi decent rifle like the Hells Canyon.

 

[rustyshackleford]

I will agree that it's encouraging to see factory rifles improving, I still feel that factory options are only 2/3 of the way there.

Browning finally stepped it up with fast twist options, but are still limited with saami throating and poor magazine length. What's the point of a 28 Nos with 180-195's stuffed half way down the case.

Also It's ridiculous that every manufacture is pretty much chambering the same handful of cartridges.

Remember accuracy is not the only consideration when choosing a rifle..
When a serious shooter wants to take advantage of modern cartridges using modern powders and bullets, there's just no replacement for at least a custom barrel.

I built a completely custom 5.8 lb Tikka chambered in 6.5 SAUM, with a carbon fiber stock, for about $200 more than a semi decent rifle like the Hells Canyon.

You realize non saami throating would be a detriment to probably 75% of their market right? Not every hunter handloads.

Also yes they don't offer every oddball round from 7 mm wapiti express through 510 whisper because it would never sell. Luckily the custom market exist for us

 

[FIGJAM]

I will agree that it's encouraging to see factory rifles improving, I still feel that factory options are only 2/3 of the way there.

Browning finally stepped it up with fast twist options, but are still limited with saami throating and poor magazine length. What's the point of a 28 Nos with 180-195's stuffed half way down the case.

Also It's ridiculous that every manufacture is pretty much chambering the same handful of cartridges.

Remember accuracy is not the only consideration when choosing a rifle..
When a serious shooter wants to take advantage of modern cartridges using modern powders and bullets, there's just no replacement for at least a custom barrel.

I built a completely custom 5.8 lb Tikka chambered in 6.5 SAUM, with a carbon fiber stock, for about $200 more than a semi decent rifle like the Hells Canyon.

Are you sure you have to shove a 180gr bullet halfway down the case with a browning xbolt magazine? Or are you just making some assumptions here? I have some buddies running the 180's in their xbolts and aren't having any problems with the magazine length...

 

[Silly_Ghillie]

I have to wonder if you would have gone out and bought a savage 110 stealth evolution for that first long range rifle, if you would have felt the same need to spend $6500 on a custom. Even in the last 2 years rifle manufacturers have have made significant improvements catering to the long range shooting crowd.

I have played with the regular stealth in .308 and I was impressed, and I am not downplaying any improvements made to these commercial rifles. My point was that rather than settling with just those options like, for example: the stealth comes in .308, 6.5 CM, .300 WM, .338 LM. what if I want a 7mm STW or a 6.5x284? well I would just build a savage axis in a MDT chassis and pretty much get the same thing but in my cartridge and in my configuration for about the same price.

There is some nuance in my little novel up there I didn't include so that's my bad. I see guys using Rem 700 SPS with zero aftermarket parts and they are putting them in clovers at 100 yards.

 

[Deleted member 25294]

You realize non saami throating would be a detriment to probably 75% of their market right? Not every hunter handloads.

Also yes they don't offer every oddball round from 7 mm wapiti express through 510 whisper because it would never sell. Luckily the custom market exist for us

Exactly!
That's why many many of us aren't satisfied with commercial offerings and choose to build customs, I never said factory options aren't good enough for 75% of the shooters out there.
Thanks for reiterating my point..

Are you sure you have to shove a 180gr bullet halfway down the case with a browning xbolt magazine? Or are you just making some assumptions here? I have some buddies running the 180's in their xbolts and aren't having any problems with the magazine length...

Not making assumptions, I've owned a 28 Nos and to take full advantage of that chambering (shooting 195's in particular) one needs at least 3.65 OAL"
There's nothing wrong with an X-bolt, my point is that one can maximize just about any cartridge by throating it out appropriately for long high BC bullets.

 

[FIGJAM]

Exactly!
That's why many many of us aren't satisfied with commercial offerings and choose to build customs, I never said factory options aren't good enough for 75% of the shooters out there.
Thanks for reiterating my point..

Not making assumptions, I've owned a 28 Nos and to take full advantage of that chambering (shooting 195's in particular) one needs at least 3.65 OAL"
There's nothing wrong with an X-bolt, my point is that one can maximize just about any cartridge by throating it out appropriately for long high BC bullets.

But did you own a 28 nosler in an xbolt? If Not, you are making some assumptions bro - go back and read your last post. You are the one that threw 180's and mag length in the mix and the mag length in the xbolts are perfectly fine for 180's. 195's are only good for paper punching anyway from the reviews I read.

 

[Deleted member 25294]

But did you own a 28 nosler in an xbolt? If Not, you are making some assumptions bro - go back and read your last post. You are the one that threw 180's and mag length in the mix and the mag length in the xbolts are perfectly fine for 180's. 195's are only good for paper punching anyway from the reviews I read.

Dang man.. Really not sure why your feathers are all ruffled
My 28 Nos was on a Remington action, I was loading 180 ELD-M's to 3.65 same as 195's, which BTW are much more than a paper puncher.

My good friend has the Xbolt in 7mm rem mag, good rifle but even 162's are seated way below the neck shoulder junction to cycle in the rotary mag.
I don't have his rifle right in front of me but I believe max mag length (that would cycle properly) was just a tad over 3.5". This resulted in him getting about 100 FPS less velocity with 162's than I'm getting with 180's properly throated in my 7-300 WSM.

If the Xbolt 28 Nos has a longer mag than I was misinformed when I looked it, but I can promise you there is a significant difference in that rounds potential going from 3.5 to 3.65 even with a 180 ELD-M

 

[FIGJAM]

Dang man.. Really not sure why your feathers are all ruffled
My 28 Nos was on a Remington action, I was loading 180 ELD-M's to 3.65 same as 195's, which BTW are much more than a paper puncher.

My good friend has the Xbolt in 7mm rem mag, good rifle but even 162's are seated way below the neck shoulder junction to cycle in the rotary mag.
I don't have his rifle right in front of me but I believe max mag length (that would cycle properly) was just a tad over 3.5". This resulted in him getting about 100 FPS less velocity with 162's than I'm getting with 180's properly throated in my 7-300 WSM.

If the Xbolt 28 Nos has a longer mag than I was misinformed when I looked it, but I can promise you there is a significant difference in that rounds potential going from 3.5 to 3.65 even with a 180 ELD-M

Because you are skewing the truth to support your argument. The internal mag length is 3.6". I helped my buddies with load development on their xbolt 28 Noslers and both shot the 180's under 1/2 moa by the time we were done. I don't have any experience with the 195's - all I know is what I read, but their performance on game seems questionable at best.

 

[Deleted member 25294]

Because you are skewing the truth to support your argument. The internal mag length is 3.6". I helped my buddies with load development on their xbolt 28 Noslers and both shot the 180's under 1/2 moa by the time we were done. I don't have any experience with the 195's - all I know is what I read, but their performance on game seems questionable at best.

Ok so I was misinformed when I was told the mag length was 3.5", I rechecked my old load data and was actually running the 180's 3.67" and the 195's single loaded were 3.7", since you don't have any experience with them I'd have to say your position on the 195 is just an assumption..

Curious what your OAL is with 180 ELD-M's loaded for the Browning 28 Nos? SAAMI is 3.340 are you actually able to load them to 3.6"? That would be a S@#t load of free bore with factory ammo

I didn't mean to start a back and forth on what the 28 Nos specifically will or wont do in one specific rifle, but in general factory saami spec rifles are limited with heavy for caliber bullets.
This is just a fact, and why many of us don't shoot factory rifles.

 

[FIGJAM]

This is a good example of the downside of a custom build, one of our members posted this today:

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/what-would-you-do.215323/

 

[Rick Richard]

Here is a experience with a factory rifle. Purchased a Tikka 300 WM brand new. The bore was coated with some type of red coating that could not be completely removed no matter how much I tried. In addition, it would not shoot a group less than about 2 moa regardless if I ran factory or handloads through it. With much frustration, I contacted Berretta USA and they advised me to send it back. However, it was going to cost me @ $85.00 for them to check it out...so much for customer support. Long story short, they said nothing was wrong with it and sent it back even with the red coating still in the barrel.

I wish this was the only experience I ve had with factory rifles, but it's not. About the only factory brand that I have not had issues with is Savage. So, in the long run I am well satisfied and money ahead owning custom rifles. If I sell them, it's not because they will not shoot or something is wrong with me, but I am bored with them and want to try something different.