Bonded vs Non Bonded - Accubond vs Berger or SST or Ballistic Tip

[Mike Matteson]

I used 120gr Noslers for years on deer of any type in my 25-06. I used 165 AB in my 308 Norma Mag @ 3300 fps and drop most of my elk except for, because I got a little far back. I have used my 308 NM, 165grs, and a 338 WM in Africa 200gr AB @3230fps and the animals drop in their tracks or within 25yrds.

 

[LVJ76]

I've killed more elk then I can count with Berger bullets. Never have I had one fail or needed a follow up shot.

Thanks Coyote01. That is the plan.

This is a case of really having to match the bullet to the game you're hunting along with the cartridge and velocity. For thinner skinned game, the BT and SST are probably your better choices. Accubonds are a stout bullet and meant to be driven fast. Depending upon the caliber, the AB starts to lose its "killing power" when it gets below 2200 fps. This is true for a lot of bullets besides the AB.
I suggest you take a look at Nathan Fosters research on wounding/killing for various bullets in multiple calibers and cartridges. Go to his website www.ballisticstudies.com. He has written a book with extensive test data in just about every cartridge you can imagine. He goes into pros and cons for multiple bullets in multiple weights for each cartridge. It's great and very eye opening info.
I can look up the info for the cartridges you are using and give you the highlights if you'd like.
Let me know.

Doug

Thanks Doug. I have Nathan's books and also read the info on his website multiple times, especially his Cartridge Research and the subject of Effective Game Killing. His research is the reason why I use the 162gr SST on my 7mm Rem Mag.

I've found that with the 139gr SST on my 7mm-08 is a fast killer as long as I do my part.

I have the Accubonds and just wanted to try them for myself. The rest I have left along with the Interbonds I'll provably trade them for some SST's or Bergers.

Thanks again

 

[dougduey]

Thanks Coyote01. That is the plan.




Thanks Doug. I have Nathan's books and also read the info on his website multiple times, especially his Cartridge Research and the subject of Effective Game Killing. His research is the reason why I use the 162gr SST on my 7mm Rem Mag.

I've found that with the 139gr SST on my 7mm-08 is a fast killer as long as I do my part.

I have the Accubonds and just wanted to try them for myself. The rest I have left along with the Interbonds I'll provably trade them for some SST's or Bergers.

Thanks again

You're well informed. Like GL Taylor said, I'm surprised you didn't have good results with Hammer bullets. I load them in 7 different cartridges and have had nothing but steller performance from them both in accuracy and terminal results. They are my go to hunting bullet. Devastating on game. Killed the mountain in my avatar with a Hammer. Shot some javalina all lined up a month ago. Couldn't believe the damage the bullet did to the second javalina after the bullet had traveled through the first one.
Did you ever talk to Steve at Hammer bullets?? He'll either get you dialed in, switch bullets or give you your money back.

 

[AZHTR]

Great thread of information here! Sorry for the long response. My only notable experience with Berger 168 VLD's from my 7 Mag. 400 yards broadside shot on this elk. The elk turned and ran like a race horse. Waited for a long while and worked my way over to where I thought the bull was hit......no blood/not a drop. Followed tracks and at ~70 yards or so picked up some blood, at a 100 yards it was "spraying" 3/4 feet on both sides of his tracks. Found the elk ~300 yards from where it was hit.

1/2" entrance and exit hole (that's why it was spraying) the lungs were disintegrated (basically mush - didn't hit a rib or nothing). I was happy to find the elk, but VERY disappointed in the lack of initial blood trail. If we would have been in thick country it could have been a different outcome.

Impressive internal damage, but I need I believe I need a bullet that can create a good exit hole. (Look at the picture, no blood at all on his side)

 

[jumpmasterkolo]

This past deer season I took a coues with a 168gr Berger with my 7mm Rem Mag, my first kill with a Berger and total destruction of vitals, dead on the spot.

I've taken several deer with the 139gr SST with my 7mm-08 with the same results, quick kill with vitals turned to smush. Some deer with 120gr Ballistic Tips and also the same results.

Now, my buddy took a coues with a 270 WSM and a 140gr Accubond, result was a slower death, bullet went through one rib and both lungs and rested under the skin the on the opposite side. The damage to the lungs was not as severe, a decent hole through them but still complete.

Last week I took a javelina with a 140gr Accubond with my 7mm-08, now usually I take these down with head and neck shots to preserve the little meat they have. In this case his head was behind some prickly pear cacti so lung shot it was, and to the ground he fell. About 15 minutes later as I approached him he pops up about 15 yards in front of me takes a few steps then slowly lays down and expires. Lungs were complete with a nice hole on them but still pretty complete. Now I have taken a couple of these desert pigs with lung shots in the past with SST and BT's and there were no lungs left.

I know bonded bulllets. Are designed to hold together, punch through bone and leave and exit wound, but I don't see them providing a fast kill. The deer I have killed with soft bullets I have pretty much always gotten exit holes and a quick kill.

Now on an elk I get it, its a tougher animal, but I would still want a fast kill, especially on this animal, and I dont see a bonded bullet doing this if they all (Accubond, Interbond, etc) behave the same.

Now I tried these Accubonds because I had some laying around and said why not, heard and read good things but now I'm convinced they don't do what I want. Animals don't bleed out as fast.

Just wanted to share my experience with them.

Stay safe all and enjoy your weekend

My (new) only issue with SSTs is on wet animals. I shot a nice buck this year who took off down a ravine and died. After recovery, I was cleaning him out and noticed his entrance wound side lung smashed against his heart. Looked like his heart actually smashed thru his lung. I washed him out and started looking for broken ribs, an exit hole... anything. I found the bullet on the outside of two cracked ribs in chunks covering a 2"-3" area.
I did some research and found out that in tests, bonded bullets penetrate wet hide much better than unbonded. BUT like you said, a "hot" ABLR could just punch a laser beam thru the animal allowing it to expire much slower.
Taking that in to account, I am now making both rounds (SST and ABLR) and trying to get like grain bullets to fly as close to each other out to 500yds. This way I have one round for dry and one for wet that fly close to each other. (STILL IN TESTING)

 

[BPollard]

I had exact same result from accubond vs sst.

For deer sst are hard to beat, for elk I'd go accubond.

I've been on a couple elk hunts now with a couple different people and some guys say if you're spending that kind of money on a hunt it's worth making sure your bullet doesn't fail go with barnes. So I have. and on the other hand I have a friend who's hunted elk with me twice now who loves Bergers and has taken at least two with them from his 7 rem mag. I am the other hand like the performance of Barnes but I just wish they made a higher BC bullet.

 

[Bob Wright]

Great thread of information here! Sorry for the long response. My only notable experience with Berger 168 VLD's from my 7 Mag. 400 yards broadside shot on this elk. The elk turned and ran like a race horse. Waited for a long while and worked my way over to where I thought the bull was hit......no blood/not a drop. Followed tracks and at ~70 yards or so picked up some blood, at a 100 yards it was "spraying" 3/4 feet on both sides of his tracks. Found the elk ~300 yards from where it was hit.

1/2" entrance and exit hole (that's why it was spraying) the lungs were disintegrated (basically mush - didn't hit a rib or nothing). I was happy to find the elk, but VERY disappointed in the lack of initial blood trail. If we would have been in thick country it could have been a different outcome.

Impressive internal damage, but I need I believe I need a bullet that can create a good exit hole. (Look at the picture, no blood at all on his side)

You always get the nice critters!
Even my dink muley buck did not leave a drop on the run until it went over. When I picked it up to move it, it was like a 5 gal pail of goo that poured out. Lungs, blood, you name it. 2 holes though, no trail.

 

[JC in Calif]

This past deer season I took a coues with a 168gr Berger with my 7mm Rem Mag, my first kill with a Berger and total destruction of vitals, dead on the spot.

I've taken several deer with the 139gr SST with my 7mm-08 with the same results, quick kill with vitals turned to smush. Some deer with 120gr Ballistic Tips and also the same results.

Now, my buddy took a coues with a 270 WSM and a 140gr Accubond, result was a slower death, bullet went through one rib and both lungs and rested under the skin the on the opposite side. The damage to the lungs was not as severe, a decent hole through them but still complete.

Last week I took a javelina with a 140gr Accubond with my 7mm-08, now usually I take these down with head and neck shots to preserve the little meat they have. In this case his head was behind some prickly pear cacti so lung shot it was, and to the ground he fell. About 15 minutes later as I approached him he pops up about 15 yards in front of me takes a few steps then slowly lays down and expires. Lungs were complete with a nice hole on them but still pretty complete. Now I have taken a couple of these desert pigs with lung shots in the past with SST and BT's and there were no lungs left.

I know bonded bulllets. Are designed to hold together, punch through bone and leave and exit wound, but I don't see them providing a fast kill. The deer I have killed with soft bullets I have pretty much always gotten exit holes and a quick kill.

Now on an elk I get it, its a tougher animal, but I would still want a fast kill, especially on this animal, and I dont see a bonded bullet doing this if they all (Accubond, Interbond, etc) behave the same.

Now I tried these Accubonds because I had some laying around and said why not, heard and read good things but now I'm convinced they don't do what I want. Animals don't bleed out as fast.

Just wanted to share my experience with them.

Stay safe all and enjoy your weekend

I have also had good luck with SST's. I've only shot one Whitetail with an Accubond, he didn't make it ten yards. I've not personally had satisfactory results with BTIPS, the exception being Antelope. For Elk I have exclusively used 180gr Barnes XXX In 300Win.

 

[James DeTorre]

I am obsessed with this question. A dead right there animal is great. Dead somewhere,But no blood trail is a big issue , especially in any difficult terrain.
Also no blood makes the guides very unhappy if you are on a guided, expensive hunt.
TTSX factory or hand loads has been most reliable across species so far for me.
Several of my rifles , however,pattern much better with other bullets.
Guess if you never hit a critter it can never die.
Dilemma

 

[James DeTorre]

One gun, one bullet doesn't seem to work.
Good reason to have a couple rifles.

 

[Grandhunter]

When I started hunting with the 270 WSM and The 300 RUM, I had great success with 130gr BT 270, and 180 gr BT 300 RUM. All dead Right There with lots of damage to the lungs, like Jell-O. Ranges were 200 - 400 yards. But one year hunting in Oregon with my 270 WSM the BT exploded. the Black tail was at 20 feet. Had to track it and found it with a 6 inch hole no exit. Thinking it was just the 270 WSM, did not Change the 180 BT until two years later when the same thing happen on a elk and 25 yards. I switched over to the AB or NP and never looked back. I did shoot a nice Mule Deer Buck 4X4 and a 3X4 Bull Elk this last year with the 190 ABLR with my 300 WSM with no issues, both DRT. Deer was at 175 yards and the Elk was at 300 Yards. The Whole Idea of the AB or the ABLR is to keep them from blowing up at short range. the facts of life of long range hunting is sometimes the range is measured in feet, not yards, and any animal with holes in both Lungs are not going far, but if the bullet blows up and only take out one you are in for a long track and could even lose the animal. Just my opinion and what 55 years of experience has taught me.

 

[LVJ76]

You're well informed. Like GL Taylor said, I'm surprised you didn't have good results with Hammer bullets. I load them in 7 different cartridges and have had nothing but steller performance from them both in accuracy and terminal results. They are my go to hunting bullet. Devastating on game. Killed the mountain in my avatar with a Hammer. Shot some javalina all lined up a month ago. Couldn't believe the damage the bullet did to the second javalina after the bullet had traveled through the first one.
Did you ever talk to Steve at Hammer bullets?? He'll either get you dialed in, switch bullets or give you your money back.

I was going to talk to Steve but instead I sold them and gave a good deal to a member here.

I have way to many bullets but still I wanted to try them out of curiosity because I had read so many good reviews.

Maybe the next barrel will like them.

Thanks again

 

[jarnold37]

This past deer season I took a coues with a 168gr Berger with my 7mm Rem Mag, my first kill with a Berger and total destruction of vitals, dead on the spot.

I've taken several deer with the 139gr SST with my 7mm-08 with the same results, quick kill with vitals turned to smush. Some deer with 120gr Ballistic Tips and also the same results.

Now, my buddy took a coues with a 270 WSM and a 140gr Accubond, result was a slower death, bullet went through one rib and both lungs and rested under the skin the on the opposite side. The damage to the lungs was not as severe, a decent hole through them but still complete.

Last week I took a javelina with a 140gr Accubond with my 7mm-08, now usually I take these down with head and neck shots to preserve the little meat they have. In this case his head was behind some prickly pear cacti so lung shot it was, and to the ground he fell. About 15 minutes later as I approached him he pops up about 15 yards in front of me takes a few steps then slowly lays down and expires. Lungs were complete with a nice hole on them but still pretty complete. Now I have taken a couple of these desert pigs with lung shots in the past with SST and BT's and there were no lungs left.

I know bonded bulllets. Are designed to hold together, punch through bone and leave and exit wound, but I don't see them providing a fast kill. The deer I have killed with soft bullets I have pretty much always gotten exit holes and a quick kill.

Now on an elk I get it, its a tougher animal, but I would still want a fast kill, especially on this animal, and I dont see a bonded bullet doing this if they all (Accubond, Interbond, etc) behave the same.

Now I tried these Accubonds because I had some laying around and said why not, heard and read good things but now I'm convinced they don't do what I want. Animals don't bleed out as fast.

Just wanted to share my experience with them.

Stay safe all and enjoy your weekend

For deer I have used little to big bullets. Have used TNT bullets (bullets with thin jackets to come apart at slower velocities) Have a 1000 yrs heavy gun and with 300 grain the result was usually a pass through with about 2" exit hole, and many times deer run. Other bullets in .338 were 180 ballistic tip at 3750 fps. Hardly ever a pass through, which is good, and both sides completely bloodshocked-never had one run. They quit making the BT in 180 (a rather short bullet) and replaced with 180 Accubond. Same bullet just bonded. At the same velocity pretty much same performance but slightly less. In 30 caliber, the 125 grainTNT at 4050 fps gives about same performance as the 338 180 BT. Only slightly more damage. Doesnt seem to matter where bullet hits so much energy is suddenly released that they drop. I can use high bc bullets at lower velocities if shooting long, 600 yards and farther but certainly prefer the explosiveness of the small fast bullet.

 

[LVJ76]

I have 2 experiences with 168VLDH and 180VLDH in 7RM:
Mule deer at 40 yards with 168, broadside behind shoulder, 2" exit, walked 20 yards and tipped over. Complete destruction of vitals, no blood trail. He tipped over and the blood was just pooling around him then.
With the 180, I had a 125 yard shot, down angle, quartering towards me. I chose high shoulder/neck junction aiming for exit behind opposite shoulder. The small elk (300 lbs)
did one 360 spin and dropped. The fragmentation hit all vitals, remainder of bullet turned right and went into gut, but did not open any gut contents, just nicks.
So, at 40 and 125 yds the bullets both performed as advertised.
For this style of bullet, I would avoid heavy bone unless it's ends up in the off shoulder. By then, it's a deadly hit to vitals.
I will be working the 280AI with the Hammer Hunter 143, as it's function also frags in front of a remaining copper slug and these shoot with good accuracy for me.
For trigger time, I will be using the 168SMK's, but also hear these are effective game getters. No experience for me yet. Expect these to perform like VLD's, hopefully.

Thanks Bob, I avoid the shoulder as much as possible with these bullets and for elk I would not use a Berger under 180gr. For practice I have some Interlocks and Sierra's as well.

Great thread of information here! Sorry for the long response. My only notable experience with Berger 168 VLD's from my 7 Mag. 400 yards broadside shot on this elk. The elk turned and ran like a race horse. Waited for a long while and worked my way over to where I thought the bull was hit......no blood/not a drop. Followed tracks and at ~70 yards or so picked up some blood, at a 100 yards it was "spraying" 3/4 feet on both sides of his tracks. Found the elk ~300 yards from where it was hit.

1/2" entrance and exit hole (that's why it was spraying) the lungs were disintegrated (basically mush - didn't hit a rib or nothing). I was happy to find the elk, but VERY disappointed in the lack of initial blood trail. If we would have been in thick country it could have been a different outcome.

Impressive internal damage, but I need I believe I need a bullet that can create a good exit hole. (Look at the picture, no blood at all on his side)

Thanks and I am glad you recovered your elk. The deer I got with the 168gr Hybrid had a 3" to 4" exit hole, blood everywhere and it didn't go anywhere.

There is no perfect do it all bullet. But for a double lung shot a soft bullet will work best in my experience. Thanks again