Biden and gun control

[Mike_k]

Recently joined this forum... More interested in hunting than politics but this year it's hard to stay away from getting involved! Sad to see how the left are openly talking about mandatory "assault" weapon seizures :-(
At the same time - gun sales were through the roof this year. I bet a lot of democrats bought whatever firearm they could, even in super gun-controlled places like California!

And - perhaps many of them won't be willing to let go of them even after the pandemic! People get used to things they own after a while, even if they were anti-gun originally... That's my hope anyway.

But a gun control legislation, however unconstitutional it is - is toothless if LE (and the Army / National Guard, if/when it comes to getting them involved) - just outright refuse to enforce it. But of course - they want to keep their jobs, like anyone else :-|

So, I would like to ask the LE vets (and I see there are several in this forum) - where does the average officer stand on the scale from full-compliance with the local legislators, to being fully loyal to the Consitution and 2nd amendment?

 

[Muddyboots]

The dilemma will be that all have to swear to uphold and defend the Constitution versus a "lawful" order from a superior. Its a razor edge balance and the real issue will be citizen refusal to comply. I know where I will stand when and if I have to.

 

[Mike_k]

The dilemma will be that all have to swear to uphold and defend the Constitution versus a "lawful" order from a superior. Its a razor edge balance and the real issue will be citizen refusal to comply. I know where I will stand when and if I have to.

Exactly! What I'm trying to ask here is how much % of LE you estimate will stand by the constitution?
Would it be roughly 20% of LE, 50%, or 80%?
Of course, would vary graetly by department... and can change hugely within months based on what our government does, but, on average, nationwide?

 

[Muddyboots]

IMO its not only standing by the Constitution but standing by your fellow citizens from a Marxist government.

 

[Muddyboots]

History is always there to remind us:

"An armed man is a citizen, an unarmed man is a subject." — John Adams

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

 

[Treeslug]

Recently joined this forum... More interested in hunting than politics but this year it's hard to stay away from getting involved! Sad to see how the left are openly talking about mandatory "assault" weapon seizures :-(
At the same time - gun sales were through the roof this year. I bet a lot of democrats bought whatever firearm they could, even in super gun-controlled places like California!

And - perhaps many of them won't be willing to let go of them even after the pandemic! People get used to things they own after a while, even if they were anti-gun originally... That's my hope anyway.

But a gun control legislation, however unconstitutional it is - is toothless if LE (and the Army / National Guard, if/when it comes to getting them involved) - just outright refuse to enforce it. But of course - they want to keep their jobs, like anyone else :-|

So, I would like to ask the LE vets (and I see there are several in this forum) - where does the average officer stand on the scale from full-compliance with the local legislators, to being fully loyal to the Consitution and 2nd amendment?

In thirty years of law enforcement, I was never asked to carry out an unconstitutional order. As a matter of fact, there were plenty of laws on the books that I choose not to enforce when I was riding alone. Peer pressure among the ranks is strong. I would say that ninety=five percent of the officers I worked with would disagree with an order to break the constitution, but there would be a small (Maybe 20 %) that would readily agree to follow that type of order. Probably another fifty percent could probably be forced to follow that order, but I doubt that more than a few would be willing to get into a gunfight to take your guns. But I have been out of LE work for fifteen years and the new people they are hiring are from a different generation and mindset, so--that is my best guess.

To be sure, that is from a city police point of view. The sheriff's departments would probably be less inclined to order their deputies to disregard the constitution, but the state LE may be slightly more inclined to order their officers to follow along with the federal LE, and the Federal law enforcement are the ones you will have to really watch--forgive me for feeling that way, but those are my true feelings about LE and the taking of our firearms.

 

[TAZMAN]

26 years in LE and while I agree some of the assessment above, the academy right now is teaching cadets similar to what you are seeing from the colleges. It's a indoctrination and not a education and most...yes I said most will trample on your rights without hesitation or thought because they have been taught that way. I'm not going to get into a lot of details but you can see on the news for yourself that the State police will not care about your rights and WILL have no issues violating the constitution for their power because there is no accountability and they want to protect their paychecks. I love our military men and women but they are use to following orders and in the civilian world that can create these issues.

I'm sorry but those are the facts and these shut downs should be a awakening as to how far LE will now go without any thought to your civil/constitutional rights. As stated above also, any Federal agency will not only violate your rights, they will use creative writing to make it appear to be something it was not. I retired because of how corrupt it was becoming and the nepotism is beyond belief.

 

[Mike_k]

History is always there to remind us:
< many quotes from the Founding Fathers and 18-th century >

Alas - the history you quote is NOT what's pounded into people's heads for the last... 20 or so years.

"wokeism" is trending now. Citing MLK Jr. is about as far back in history as it goes.
If the Founding Fathers are mentioned - it's often noted that they were OK with slavery at the time. And that they were deeply religious. These two facts are exercised to downplay the meaning and importance of anything they have said.

I have to admit - it's true that the world has changed dramatically since 1776, and it's hard to argue when liberals say that the founding fathers' words and system of values don't suit modern reality very well anymore.

We ought to find much more recent historical characters and examples of freedom to cite, and to stand firmly on.

 

[Muddyboots]

The problem is when it becomes accepted that the Constitution is outdated and no longer required. I've had Liberals tell me its wrong to criticize the government since it can lead to dissension. No kidding really? To them 2nd Amendment is for hunting and 1st is for Facebook.

 

[Mike_k]

The problem is when it becomes accepted that the Constitution is outdated and no longer required. I've had Liberals tell me its wrong to criticize the government since it can lead to dissension. No kidding really? To them 2nd Amendment is for hunting and 1st is for Facebook.

Another problem is... I've worked with quite right-leaning people (DoD), who nonetheless made a very left-leaning decision, when facing a risk of publicity.
Basically, people were extremely afraid of the risk of any trace of racism being exposed, and went to great length of getting rid of it, even when verbally they were very far from Politically Correct on a wide range of topics.

Even bold and quite fearless people are scared into making decisions which make them look appealing to investors and the public opinion.

100 people in a room. 30% yell "Yes!" and 70% remain silent. Result - it sounds like "everyone" is yelling "Yes!".
To each of those 70% as well :-(
Then maybe 1 or 2 of the 70 dare to yell "No!" - but get destroyed on the spot by the 30, while 68-69 watch in fear.

Not sure how we could pull out of this catch-22

 

[Muddyboots]

Easy just say NO. We all had to learn it with raising our kids, not hard to do once you get the hang of it.

 

[Mike_k]

Easy just say NO. We all had to learn it with raising our kids, not hard to do once you get the hang of it.

I did. And got fired for it.
By people who likely kinda sympathized with me at heart, but were too afraid to admit it publicly, let alone keep me as too big of a risk factor in this left-dominated environment.

 

[Treeslug]

26 years in LE and while I agree some of the assessment above, the academy right now is teaching cadets similar to what you are seeing from the colleges. It's a indoctrination and not a education and most...yes I said most will trample on your rights without hesitation or thought because they have been taught that way. I'm not going to get into a lot of details but you can see on the news for yourself that the State police will not care about your rights and WILL have no issues violating the constitution for their power because there is no accountability and they want to protect their paychecks. I love our military men and women but they are use to following orders and in the civilian world that can create these issues.

I'm sorry but those are the facts and these shut downs should be a awakening as to how far LE will now go without any thought to your civil/constitutional rights. As stated above also, any Federal agency will not only violate your rights, they will use creative writing to make it appear to be something it was not. I retired because of how corrupt it was becoming and the nepotism is beyond belief.

I tried to put things into some perspective as to percentages. That is not really possible. Percentages of one man's thoughts are like statistics from one party against another party. From your writings, I can tell that our beliefs are pretty well parallel, and not very far apart at that. I'm not particularly eager to disparage law enforcement. Still, I do agree that the training and the people law enforcement agencies are looking for psychologically today are vastly different than the people they were hiring a generation ago.

State LE leaves little discretion to its officers. Federal LE is trained to completely believe in their superiority over the lesser, foolish local LE officers, and that feeling of superiority extends to civilians as well. Try to argue with a fed over jurisdiction. The alphabet soup agencies (FBI, DEA, CIA) were formed by elected leaders acting on behalf of the citizenry of this fine country. Those agencies have been given unconstitutional authority to make regulations. Those regulations impact everyone while being thought of and supported by scholars who represent only a SMALL portion of the loudest squeakers that probably vote for their own pay raise and say they were given that authority BY and FOR the PEOPLE. Really?

The military, as in places like Cuba and Venezuela, is a guessing game. If the command structure of the military goes along with the idea of taking away our weapons and other rights, the troops will overwhelmingly do as ordered. The troops are well trained, disciplined, and indoctrinated. Violating constitutional rights will be an afterthought for the troops if the upper echelon orders the taking of our rights. I love the military and all it has done for this country. However, I am a realist when it comes to what the military leaders can and will do. And most of what the leaders of this country will do is based on whoever is in charge of that branch of government--by and for the people--us.

 

[Treeslug]

Easy just say NO. We all had to learn it with raising our kids, not hard to do once you get the hang of it.

Raising my kids? Heck, I have a harder time telling my dog "No." I am not politically correct and I am shunned for it regularly by other non-politically correct people I know who have the same beliefs I have, but are afraid to say so out loud. I see that as a problem. I am too old and broken down to physically fistfight anyone these days, but I can still scream loud enough to hurt someone's ears.